[tlhIngan-Hol] Hergh ngevwI'
Here is the stupid question of the day : {Hergh ngevwI'} refers to the person who sells, or to the store which sells ? Or both ?
Am 08.06.2016 um 10:07 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
Here is the stupid question of the day:
There is no stupid question. :-)
{Hergh ngevwI'} refers to the person who sells, or to the store which sells ? Or both ?
Well, literally spoken, a building cannot sell anything. So it must be the person who sells it. I don't know how this word was created, but I think of it as what one would say in english "I go to the butcher" or "I go to the barber's" - you think of the building, but you mention the person. How is that in Greek? -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
thanks !
How is that in Greek?
qachvaD wa' 'elaDya' mu' tu'lu' 'ej nuvvaD latlh mu' tu'lu'. in greek we have two different words ; one describes the building, and another describes the person. On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 12:32 PM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 08.06.2016 um 10:07 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
Here is the stupid question of the day:
There is no stupid question. :-)
{Hergh ngevwI'} refers to the person who sells, or to the store which sells ? Or both ?
Well, literally spoken, a building cannot sell anything. So it must be the person who sells it. I don't know how this word was created, but I think of it as what one would say in english "I go to the butcher" or "I go to the barber's" - you think of the building, but you mention the person. How is that in Greek?
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 08.06.2016 um 12:02 schrieb mayqel:
qachvaD wa' 'elaDya' mu' tu'lu' 'ej nuvvaD latlh mu' tu'lu'. in greek we have two different words ; one describes the building, and another describes the person.
jIyaj. 'ach latlh ngevwI' Daqel'a' je? roD DoyIchlanDaq cha' mu'mey tu'lu' je. Apotheke-Daq vum Apotheker. Bäckerei-Daq vum Bäcker. 'ach rut jatlh vay' <tIr ngogh chenmoHwI' vIghoS>. <chenmoHwI' qach vIghoS> net jatlhbe'. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
lieven:
jIyaj. 'ach latlh ngevwI' Daqel'a' je? roD DoyIchlanDaq cha' mu'mey tu'lu' je. Apotheke-Daq vum Apotheker. Bäckerei-Daq vum Bäcker. 'ach rut jatlh vay' <tIr ngogh chenmoHwI' vIghoS>. <chenmoHwI' qach vIghoS> net jatlhbe'.
DaH, ghelmeH mu'tlheghlIj vIyaj ! now, I understand your question ! 'elaDya'Daq cha' mu'vam DIghaj : in greece, we have these two words : *farmakeio* = qach Del mu'vam this word describes the building *farmakopoios* = pa' vumbogh nuv'e' Del mu'vam this word describes the person who works there jatlh neHchugh vay' : nuch Hergh vIje'meH (...)Daq vIghoS if someone wants to say : I will go to (...), in order to buy an aspirin vaj nuv Delbogh mu''e' qach Delbogh mu''e' joq vIlo'laH. then he is able to use both the word for the building, and the word for the person as well. 'a poH HochHom qach Delbogh mu''e', lulo' nuv. however almost all of the time, people use the word which describes the building. DaH, wanI'vam vIqelqa'mo', jItlhoj.. In fact, now that I'm thinking of this subject (person vs building) again, I realize.. poH HochHom, Hoch ngoQmeyvaD, qach Delbogh mu''e' wIlo'laH ! almost always, for similar purposes, we use the word which describes the building ! 'a majatlh wIneHchugh : but if we want to say : Qel vISuchnIS.. I need to see a doctor.. vaj, nuv Delbogh mu''e' wIlo'. then we will use the word for the person. 'a ropyaH qachDaq wIjaHchugh, vaj qach Delbogh mu''e' wIlo'. but if we go to the hospital, then we prefer the word for the building. jIHvaD 'elaDya' Hol lurur De'meyvam ! It all seems greek to me ! hehehe !!!!!!!!! qunnoQ On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 1:11 PM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 08.06.2016 um 12:02 schrieb mayqel:
qachvaD wa' 'elaDya' mu' tu'lu' 'ej nuvvaD latlh mu' tu'lu'. in greek we have two different words ; one describes the building, and another describes the person.
jIyaj. 'ach latlh ngevwI' Daqel'a' je? roD DoyIchlanDaq cha' mu'mey tu'lu' je. Apotheke-Daq vum Apotheker. Bäckerei-Daq vum Bäcker. 'ach rut jatlh vay' <tIr ngogh chenmoHwI' vIghoS>. <chenmoHwI' qach vIghoS> net jatlhbe'.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 8 June 2016 at 10:07, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Here is the stupid question of the day :
{Hergh ngevwI'} refers to the person who sells, or to the store which sells ? Or both ?
It refers to the person. In the TalkNow! Klingon softwhere {ngevwI'} and {Hergh ngevwI'} are used, the pronoun {ghaH} is used. But see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy (or maybe https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Μετωνυμία is more appropriate) -- De'vID
mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
{Hergh ngevwI'} refers to the person who sells, or to the store which sells ? Or both ?
De'vID:
It refers to the person. In the TalkNow! Klingon softwhere {ngevwI'} and {Hergh ngevwI'} are used, the pronoun {ghaH} is used.
But see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy (or maybe https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Μετωνυμία is more appropriate)
nuqDaq ghaH Hergh ngevwI''e' Where is the chemist? (TNK) Another example from TalkNow! is: nuqDaq ghaH ngevwI''e' Where is the shop? (TNK) On the other hand a {Hergh QaywI'} "pneumatic hypo" (also called a hypospray and hyposyringe in Trek) is a medical device, lit. "thing which transfers medicine". -- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
ok, this is becoming confusing ; and to make things even worst, this question came to my mind minutes ago.. .. someone builds a completely automated physical store, which store sells medical products. wouldn't we be able to call that store Hergh ngevwI' ? and then we have the Hergh QaywI'. If we analyze the QaywI', then we see that the {Qay} means to transfer. However the given translation, doesn't refer to a person who transfers ; it rather refers to a thing, which transfers. Unless the definition of {Hergh ngevwI'} as "being the person who does", comes directly from 'oqranD, then why couldn't we use it to describe the store as well ? So, the million dollar question is this : Does the definition of {Hergh ngevwI'}, as "the person who does", come directly from 'oqranD ? qunnoq On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 4:42 PM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
{Hergh ngevwI'} refers to the person who sells, or to the store which sells ? Or both ?
De'vID:
It refers to the person. In the TalkNow! Klingon softwhere {ngevwI'} and {Hergh ngevwI'} are used, the pronoun {ghaH} is used.
But see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy (or maybe https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Μετωνυμία is more appropriate)
nuqDaq ghaH Hergh ngevwI''e' Where is the chemist? (TNK)
Another example from TalkNow! is:
nuqDaq ghaH ngevwI''e' Where is the shop? (TNK)
On the other hand a {Hergh QaywI'} "pneumatic hypo" (also called a hypospray and hyposyringe in Trek) is a medical device, lit. "thing which transfers medicine".
-- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 12:04 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
ok, this is becoming confusing ;
and to make things even worst, this question came to my mind minutes ago..
.. someone builds a completely automated physical store, which store sells medical products. wouldn't we be able to call that store Hergh ngevwI' ?
I'd say yes. A {Hergh ngevwI'} is a person or thing that sells medicine. Only context will tell you if it's an actual person or a machine. Personally I don't think it really matters if the seller is a person or a machine, as the outcome is the same (I get {Hergh}, which is why I would visit a {Hergh ngevwI'}).
and then we have the Hergh QaywI'. If we analyze the QaywI', then we see that the {Qay} means to transfer. However the given translation, doesn't refer to a person who transfers ; it rather refers to a thing, which transfers.
Again, it refers to both a thing and a person, and only context will tell you which of those it it. It could be a person or thing that moves {Hergh} from one vat to another. The translation provided by Okrand is but one of many meanings of the term. Just as the English "medicine transferer" could be any number of thing, the Klingon {Hergh QaywI'} could also be a number of things. One of those things is what the Federation called a "hypospray".
Unless the definition of {Hergh ngevwI'} as "being the person who does", comes directly from 'oqranD, then why couldn't we use it to describe the store as well ?
We can, if the store does the selling. Personally I use {Suy} to specifically refer to a person who sells stuff: {Hergh Suy} - "Medicine Merchant".
So, the million dollar question is this :
Does the definition of {Hergh ngevwI'}, as "the person who does", come directly from 'oqranD ?
Technically it does, since {-wI'} comes from Okrand, and he says attaching {-wI'} to {ngev} would make "person, or thing, that does {ngev}". The meaning of "chemist" for {Hergh ngevwI'} didn't come from him, but it was vetted by him. Is was translated by an Englishman though, and in England "chemist" refers to both the person and the store (unlike in the USA where "chemist" isn't really used outside science class/jobs, instead they use "drug store" for the place, and "pharmacist" for the person). qurgh
thank you qurgh ! Your post has been very informative indeed ; So, here comes the final question.. And to confess my sin, this is what sparked this whole thread.. In my dictionary I have {Hergh ngevwI'} listed as "the store and/or the person". Should I leave this, as is, or should I delete the "store" definition, leaving only the "person" ? qunnoq On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 7:48 PM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 12:04 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
ok, this is becoming confusing ;
and to make things even worst, this question came to my mind minutes ago..
.. someone builds a completely automated physical store, which store sells medical products. wouldn't we be able to call that store Hergh ngevwI' ?
I'd say yes. A {Hergh ngevwI'} is a person or thing that sells medicine. Only context will tell you if it's an actual person or a machine.
Personally I don't think it really matters if the seller is a person or a machine, as the outcome is the same (I get {Hergh}, which is why I would visit a {Hergh ngevwI'}).
and then we have the Hergh QaywI'. If we analyze the QaywI', then we see that the {Qay} means to transfer. However the given translation, doesn't refer to a person who transfers ; it rather refers to a thing, which transfers.
Again, it refers to both a thing and a person, and only context will tell you which of those it it. It could be a person or thing that moves {Hergh} from one vat to another. The translation provided by Okrand is but one of many meanings of the term. Just as the English "medicine transferer" could be any number of thing, the Klingon {Hergh QaywI'} could also be a number of things. One of those things is what the Federation called a "hypospray".
Unless the definition of {Hergh ngevwI'} as "being the person who does", comes directly from 'oqranD, then why couldn't we use it to describe the store as well ?
We can, if the store does the selling. Personally I use {Suy} to specifically refer to a person who sells stuff: {Hergh Suy} - "Medicine Merchant".
So, the million dollar question is this :
Does the definition of {Hergh ngevwI'}, as "the person who does", come directly from 'oqranD ?
Technically it does, since {-wI'} comes from Okrand, and he says attaching {-wI'} to {ngev} would make "person, or thing, that does {ngev}". The meaning of "chemist" for {Hergh ngevwI'} didn't come from him, but it was vetted by him. Is was translated by an Englishman though, and in England "chemist" refers to both the person and the store (unlike in the USA where "chemist" isn't really used outside science class/jobs, instead they use "drug store" for the place, and "pharmacist" for the person).
qurgh
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On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 1:33 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
thank you qurgh !
You're welcome!
Your post has been very informative indeed ;
So, here comes the final question.. And to confess my sin, this is what sparked this whole thread..
In my dictionary I have {Hergh ngevwI'} listed as "the store and/or the person". Should I leave this, as is, or should I delete the "store" definition, leaving only the "person" ?
qunnoq
I'm going to second what Lieven said in his email about not sticking too much to the definitions. If you know what {Hergh}, {ngev} and {-wI'} mean, then the result from combining them should form naturally. Don't lock it down to a specific, limited, set of English (or greek) words. If I was forced to add this to my dictionary (I don't have it in mine: https://hol.kag.org/words/Hergh_ngevwI'), I would label it as "a seller of medicine" and avoid the whole "thing/person" issue. qurgh
Am 08.06.2016 um 18:04 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
.. someone builds a completely automated physical store, which store sells medical products. wouldn't we be able to call that store Hergh ngevwI' ?
vIlajbej. jan 'oHchugh vay' ngevbogh Doch'e', vaj 'oHvaD ngevwI' vIpongbej. roD DuSaQDaq Soj ngevbogh janmey law' tu'lu'. 'oHvaD {Soj ngevwI'} vIponglaH 'e' vIHar.
and then we have the Hergh QaywI'. If we analyze the QaywI', then we see that the {Qay} means to transfer. However the given translation, doesn't refer to a person who transfers ; it rather refers to a thing, which transfers.
'a Hergh Qaychugh Qel, vaj chaq Hergh QaywI' ghaH Qel'e' :-)
Unless the definition of {Hergh ngevwI'} as "being the person who does", comes directly from 'oqranD, then why couldn't we use it to describe the store as well ?
Don't stick too much to the definitions. See what the Klingon tells you. The suffix {-wI'} means "person or thing that does something". So it's up to you to choose, as long as it makes sense. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
Is a ghItlhwI' a person, a printer hooked up to a computer, or a pencil? We have the same problem in English. What is a dishwasher? An appliance, or a person? When the dishwasher is loaded, is it that one cannot fit anymore plates in to the appliance, or is does it mean that the wife is drunk? It always comes back to context. - DloraH
-----Original Message----- From: tlhIngan-Hol [mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org] On Behalf Of mayqel qunenoS Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2016 11:05 To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] [tlhIngan-Hol] Hergh ngevwI'
ok, this is becoming confusing ;
and to make things even worst, this question came to my mind minutes ago..
.. someone builds a completely automated physical store, which store sells medical products. wouldn't we be able to call that store Hergh ngevwI' ?
and then we have the Hergh QaywI'. If we analyze the QaywI', then we see that the {Qay} means to transfer. However the given translation, doesn't refer to a person who transfers ; it rather refers to a thing, which transfers.
Unless the definition of {Hergh ngevwI'} as "being the person who does", comes directly from 'oqranD, then why couldn't we use it to describe the store as well ?
So, the million dollar question is this :
Does the definition of {Hergh ngevwI'}, as "the person who does", come directly from 'oqranD ?
qunnoq
On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 4:42 PM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
{Hergh ngevwI'} refers to the person who sells, or to the store which sells ? Or both ?
De'vID:
It refers to the person. In the TalkNow! Klingon softwhere {ngevwI'} and {Hergh ngevwI'} are used, the pronoun {ghaH} is used.
But see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy (or maybe https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Μετωνυμία is more appropriate)
nuqDaq ghaH Hergh ngevwI''e' Where is the chemist? (TNK)
Another example from TalkNow! is:
nuqDaq ghaH ngevwI''e' Where is the shop? (TNK)
On the other hand a {Hergh QaywI'} "pneumatic hypo" (also called a hypospray and hyposyringe in Trek) is a medical device, lit. "thing which transfers medicine".
-- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
participants (6)
-
De'vID -
DloraH -
Lieven -
mayqel qunenoS -
qurgh lungqIj -
Steven Boozer