Am 04.04.2019 um 23:38 schrieb De'vID:

If the cook is ordering five pieces of Durani lizard skin from a butcher, it would be {vagh Duran lungmey DIr}, not *{vagh Duran lung DIrDu'}. I don't think the latter is possible, as {DIr} is being used in the sense of a material in this context.

Okay, that may be correct in this context, but what I suggested is not wrong either. At least, the latter is not impossible. In his message in st.k, Okrand wrote: ---- [...]if the skin just came off either by natural causes [...] or by the creatures being, well, skinned, then the body-part plural suffix {-Du'} may be used: {DIrDu'}. But {DIr} alone, without a suffix, is heard most often. ---- So we are both right. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/stk

Since I’m referred to in it, here’s Okrand’s complete post for those who haven’t seen it before: ---------------- [[begin]] ---------------- From: Marc Okrand <mokrand@erols.com> Newsgroups: startrek.klingon Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 00:15:57 -0500 Subject: Re: DIrmey pagh DIrDu' Steven Boozer wrote ...

On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Alan Anderson wrote: |That said, I prefer {DIrDu'} when talking about multiple skins, especially |multiple layers of skin like a shedding snake.

As to the plural, in the discussion of the traditional warrior's tunic {yIvbeH} we read, "Accompanying sleeves (tlhaymey) ... were generally made of animal pelts (veDDIrmey), skin (DIr), with fur (veD) still attached" (KGT p. 58).

Since number is an optional category in Klingon (the plural suffix may be left off even if the word refers to more than one thing), {DIr} may refer to "a skin" or "skins" or "skin" as a material or substance. Likewise for {veDDIr} "pelt, pelts." So the problem of which plural suffix to use comes up only when one feels the need to be very specific. If I understand Maltz correctly, it works like this: The general plural suffix {-mey} is not used with body parts (except by poets, of course). Thus {DIrmey} "skins" and {veDDIrmey} "pelts" are not (or, perhaps better, are no longer) body parts, but rather are materials from which things (clothing or blankets, for example) may be made. They've lost their association with the creatures that originally had them. (This is kind of like the distinction in English between "beef," which is eaten, and "cattle," which isn't.) If there still is that association, that is, if the creatures still have their skin, or if it's a creature that has multiple skins (maybe layers, maybe different kinds of skin on different parts of the body), or if the skin just came off either by natural causes (as with Alan Anderson's snakes) or by the creatures being, well, skinned, then the body-part plural suffix {-Du'} may be used: {DIrDu'}. But {DIr} alone, without a suffix, is heard most often. ---------------- [[end]] ---------------- Note that Okrand was discussing skins, firs and pelts in general, not Durani lizard skins as a snack: KCD: "Served dried and thinly sliced. Discovered by a Klingon military unit stranded on Durani I for six months without supplies." Apparently KCD also mentioned that it is a food item which never uses a plural suffix -- can anyone confirm this? I never got the game to work on my PC back in the 1990’s – rather like jerky. Lizard skins sounds like potato skins, which I’ve never heard ordered by number in a restaurant: e.g. “Bring me 13 potato skins, 50 grams of cole slaw, and a diet Coke.” (Although you could say, “There’s a piece of lizard/potato skin on the floor. Pick it up! What am I, your servant?!”) Hmm… do we have a word for piece or chunk of something other than {‘ay’}? -- Voragh Ca'Non Master of the Klingons From: De'vID On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 at 07:43, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de<mailto:levinius@gmx.de>> wrote: Am 04.04.2019 um 23:38 schrieb De'vID:

If the cook is ordering five pieces of Durani lizard skin from a butcher, it would be {vagh Duran lungmey DIr}, not *{vagh Duran lung DIrDu'}. I don't think the latter is possible, as {DIr} is being used in the sense of a material in this context. It's like "fur" in English. You don't ask for "five furs", you ask for "five pelts".

Okay, that may be correct in this context, but what I suggested is not wrong either. At least, the latter is not impossible. In his message in st.k, Okrand wrote: You should state the source. It's from a message on the startrek.klingon newsgroup: http://klingonska.org/canon/1998-03-23b-news.txt ---- [...]if the skin just came off either by natural causes [...] or by the creatures being, well, skinned, then the body-part plural suffix {-Du'} may be used: {DIrDu'}. But {DIr} alone, without a suffix, is heard most often. ---- So we are both right. Actually, that message supports your idea that an order to a butcher would use {DIrDu'}. -- De'vID

Okrand also says on KCD that Durani lizard skins are "served dried and thinly sliced." The slices are probably eaten by the handful, like potato chips or popcorn. (As the old American TV commercial said, "You can never eat just one!"). But I'm sure you can refer to the {DIrDu'} before you fry them and slice them up. Voragh -----Original Message----- From: Lieven L. Litaer Am 05.04.2019 um 16:09 schrieb Steven Boozer:

Apparently KCD also mentioned that it is a food item which never uses a plural suffix -- can anyone confirm this?  I never got the game to work on my PC back in the 1990’s – rather like jerky.

Okrand says on Klingon CD: ------------- "Lizard" is only a close approximation of what the Klingon word lung {means}. "Salamander" might do just as well, but in fact, neither is accurate. The word for skin is {DIr}. The plural form of this word is never used when referring to the skin of this animal prepared as food. ------------- In my opinion, he just wanted to say that you don't use it in a phrase like {Duran lung *DIrmey vISop}. If there are several skins "floating around", I'm sure it's okay to use the plural suffix there.

Am 05.04.2019 um 16:09 schrieb Steven Boozer:

Apparently KCD also mentioned that it is a food item which never uses a plural suffix -- can anyone confirm this?  I never got the game to work on my PC back in the 1990’s – rather like jerky.

By the way: did anyone ever transcribe all of these hidden notes from KCD? They don't contain much of large importance, but would still be nice to have. If it does not exist, I would start, but I don't want to do double work. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/KlingonCD

Sorry, I spoke too soon; accidentally inferred that you were referring to something *other* than Durani lizard skins. Here is the entry for {Duran lung DIr}: https://hol.kag.org/a/Durani?o=DevwI1955 The audio is at: https://hol.kag.org/media/sounds/FD008T.WAV.mp3 //loghaD ________________________________________ From: Felix Malmenbeck Sent: Friday, April 5, 2019 17:01 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Klingon CD

Apparently KCD also mentioned that it is a food item which never uses a plural suffix -- can anyone confirm this?

You are likely referring to Bregit lung - {bIreQtagh}. You can listen to this note on Hol 'ampaS: https://hol.kag.org/a/bIreQtagh?o=DevwI265 (If the audio player doesn't work, replace /a/bIreQtagh?o=DevwI265 with /media/sounds/FD001T.WAV.mp3 )

By the way: did anyone ever transcribe all of these hidden notes from KCD? They don't contain much of large importance, but would still be nice to have.

You can find many of them - but not all of them - in the latter half of this document: http://klingonska.org/canon/1996-04-kcd.txt //loghaD ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> Sent: Friday, April 5, 2019 16:30 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: [tlhIngan Hol] Klingon CD Am 05.04.2019 um 16:09 schrieb Steven Boozer:

Apparently KCD also mentioned that it is a food item which never uses a plural suffix -- can anyone confirm this? I never got the game to work on my PC back in the 1990’s – rather like jerky.

By the way: did anyone ever transcribe all of these hidden notes from KCD? They don't contain much of large importance, but would still be nice to have. If it does not exist, I would start, but I don't want to do double work. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/KlingonCD _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 11:51 AM Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:

Am 05.04.2019 um 17:01 schrieb Felix Malmenbeck:

...

(If the audio player doesn't work,

Indeed, it doen't.

What system are you using? Can you give me any more information about how it's not working (console errors, etc)? The Audio player is a standard HTML5 tag that should work in any modern browser (Chrome, Edge, Firefox, etc). qurgh

On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 at 17:01, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:

...

Apparently KCD also mentioned that it is a food item which never uses a plural suffix -- can anyone confirm this?

You are likely referring to Bregit lung - {bIreQtagh}.

While we're on the topic of bregit lungs, I just want to point out how amazing K'Tesh's Klingon recipes web site is (as it has apparently time-traveled from the 1990s to greet us in the present): http://www.geocities.ws/ktesh_kag/main.htm -- De'vID

I just tried the link and it worked for me. Voragh From: Christa Hansberry That recipes link takes me to some page with "A virus has been detected!" pop-ups :-( While we're on the topic of bregit lungs, I just want to point out how amazing K'Tesh's Klingon recipes web site is (as it has apparently time-traveled from the 1990s to greet us in the present): http://www.geocities.ws/ktesh_kag/main.htm -- De'vID