For quite some time now, I have been meaning to learn the pIqaD for no other specific reason rather than the fact that it looks pretty cool. But there is a problem which takes the fun away. The pIqaD as it is given has each letter written in a line of varied thickness. But if you try and write it with a pen/pencil, the line would be of the same thickness throughout the whole character. With the unfortunate result being that after one will have endured the pain of learning it, he will be left with something which doesn't look as cool as the original. This makes me wonder why it was given with lines of varying thickness in the first place. qunnoq
On Jul 4, 2017, at 1:19 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
For quite some time now, I have been meaning to learn the pIqaD for no other specific reason rather than the fact that it looks pretty cool.
But there is a problem which takes the fun away.
The pIqaD as it is given has each letter written in a line of varied thickness. But if you try and write it with a pen/pencil, the line would be of the same thickness throughout the whole character.
With the unfortunate result being that after one will have endured the pain of learning it, he will be left with something which doesn't look as cool as the original.
This makes me wonder why it was given with lines of varying thickness in the first place.
qunnoq
The answer is right there in your question: because it looks cool, at least to people who share your tastes in alien typography. There are several pIqaD typefaces designed with strokes of uniform thickness. Do you think all of them look uncool? If not, pick one to emulate with handwriting. -- ghunchu'wI'
This situation exists for many natural languages as well: The handwritten script looks much different than the printed script. Hebrew is a good example. Tim Stoffel -- -----Original Message----- From: ghunchu'wI' 'utlh <qunchuy@alcaco.net> Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] The problem with pIqaD Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 13:37:35 -0400 On Jul 4, 2017, at 1:19 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
For quite some time now, I have been meaning to learn the pIqaD for no other specific reason rather than the fact that it looks pretty cool.
But there is a problem which takes the fun away.
The pIqaD as it is given has each letter written in a line of varied thickness. But if you try and write it with a pen/pencil, the line would be of the same thickness throughout the whole character.
With the unfortunate result being that after one will have endured the pain of learning it, he will be left with something which doesn't look as cool as the original.
This makes me wonder why it was given with lines of varying thickness in the first place.
qunnoq
The answer is right there in your question: because it looks cool, at least to people who share your tastes in alien typography. There are several pIqaD typefaces designed with strokes of uniform thickness. Do you think all of them look uncool? If not, pick one to emulate with handwriting. -- ghunchu'wI' _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
I’m perfectly fine with different writing methods producing different strokes for the same character. What bugs me is that it's pretty much impossible to tell which lines of the usual pIqaD characters are essential parts of the characters and which are serifs and other decorations. If the characters we’ve seen associated with the new Star Trek series are “official,” they may solve that problem, because they are mostly uniform lines and can be drawn with a normal pen. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name From: mayqel qunenoS Sent: Tuesday, July 4, 2017 1:19 PM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: [tlhIngan Hol] The problem with pIqaD For quite some time now, I have been meaning to learn the pIqaD for no other specific reason rather than the fact that it looks pretty cool. But there is a problem which takes the fun away. The pIqaD as it is given has each letter written in a line of varied thickness. But if you try and write it with a pen/pencil, the line would be of the same thickness throughout the whole character. With the unfortunate result being that after one will have endured the pain of learning it, he will be left with something which doesn't look as cool as the original. This makes me wonder why it was given with lines of varying thickness in the first place. qunnoq
SuStel:
If the characters we’ve seen associated with the new Star Trek series are “official,” they may solve that problem, because they are mostly uniform lines and can be drawn with a normal pen
Are these new characters anywhere to be found in the klingon language wiki ? Or anywhere else ? On 5 Jul 2017 1:27 am, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
I’m perfectly fine with different writing methods producing different strokes for the same character. What bugs me is that it's pretty much impossible to tell which lines of the usual pIqaD characters are essential parts of the characters and which are serifs and other decorations.
If the characters we’ve seen associated with the new Star Trek series are “official,” they may solve that problem, because they are mostly uniform lines and can be drawn with a normal pen.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
*From: *mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> *Sent: *Tuesday, July 4, 2017 1:19 PM *To: *tlhingan-hol@kli.org *Subject: *[tlhIngan Hol] The problem with pIqaD
For quite some time now, I have been meaning to learn the pIqaD for no other specific reason rather than the fact that it looks pretty cool.
But there is a problem which takes the fun away.
The pIqaD as it is given has each letter written in a line of varied thickness. But if you try and write it with a pen/pencil, the line would be of the same thickness throughout the whole character.
With the unfortunate result being that after one will have endured the pain of learning it, he will be left with something which doesn't look as cool as the original.
This makes me wonder why it was given with lines of varying thickness in the first place.
qunnoq
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 3:39 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Are these new characters anywhere to be found in the klingon language wiki ? Or anywhere else ?
http://www.cbs.com/shows/star-trek-discovery/news/1006273/star-trek-discover... When it says "characters" it is actually referring to the cast, but it also includes a pair of sentences written in a somewhat Stargate-looking pIqaD. -- ghunchu'wI'
ghunchu'wI':
it also includes a pair of sentences written in a somewhat Stargate-looking pIqaD.
thanks for posting the link. I went to that address and saw these two sentences. ok, they are good, but I prefer the KLI pIqaD as it seen here: http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/PIqaD The pIqaD I am talking about, is the one which is displayed under the bold letters saying "This is the set created and used by the KLI". The reason why I like this better, is because the characters resemble blades, which of course is consistent with the klingon warrior tradition. But lets get back to the new characters of the cbs series.. All I saw was the two lines displayed on that page. Does the video display more lines/characters ? I am asking because when I tried to watch the video, I got a message saying "the video you have requested is not available for your geographic region". And something else.. Do we have an one-on-one mapping of these new characters for the entire klingon alphabet ? qunnoq On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 11:40 AM, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 3:39 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Are these new characters anywhere to be found in the klingon language wiki ? Or anywhere else ?
http://www.cbs.com/shows/star-trek-discovery/news/1006273/star-trek-discover...
When it says "characters" it is actually referring to the cast, but it also includes a pair of sentences written in a somewhat Stargate-looking pIqaD.
-- ghunchu'wI'
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
I think they're not really "new Klingon characters" (the letters, I mean), but just a different font, more stylish. Like Arial compared to Times New Roman. If they're indeed canon, it's a good way to base one's handwriting one, perhaps. I remember having seen the same characters on some picture with the Starfleet logo in the back, last year or so. Personally, I can't read much of the pIqaD (gotta learn it too), but the letter match the common-style Klingon pIqaD. With some eyeball matching and imagination I think you can figure out which letter is which. I think the first line ends in -ta'. First word of the second line is qul, etc. - André 2017-07-05 15:55 GMT+06:30 mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>:
ghunchu'wI':
it also includes a pair of sentences written in a somewhat Stargate-looking pIqaD.
thanks for posting the link. I went to that address and saw these two sentences.
ok, they are good, but I prefer the KLI pIqaD as it seen here: http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/PIqaD
The pIqaD I am talking about, is the one which is displayed under the bold letters saying "This is the set created and used by the KLI". The reason why I like this better, is because the characters resemble blades, which of course is consistent with the klingon warrior tradition.
But lets get back to the new characters of the cbs series.. All I saw was the two lines displayed on that page. Does the video display more lines/characters ? I am asking because when I tried to watch the video, I got a message saying "the video you have requested is not available for your geographic region".
And something else.. Do we have an one-on-one mapping of these new characters for the entire klingon alphabet ?
qunnoq
On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 11:40 AM, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 3:39 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Are these new characters anywhere to be found in the klingon language
wiki
? Or anywhere else ?
http://www.cbs.com/shows/star-trek-discovery/news/1006273/ star-trek-discovery-reveals-klingon-characters-/
When it says "characters" it is actually referring to the cast, but it also includes a pair of sentences written in a somewhat Stargate-looking pIqaD.
-- ghunchu'wI'
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 5 July 2017 at 14:19, André Müller <esperantist@gmail.com> wrote:
Personally, I can't read much of the pIqaD (gotta learn it too), but the letter match the common-style Klingon pIqaD. With some eyeball matching and imagination I think you can figure out which letter is which. I think the first line ends in -ta'. First word of the second line is qul, etc.
It says: {ghetwI' luwIvlu'ta'. qul yIchu'} -- De'vID
It also continues the inexplicable choices of what constitutes the "essential" part of a letter. "L" and "U" differ only by a tick on the lower right serif?? (In fairness, the rest aren't so bad) ter'eS From: De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> To: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol@kli.org> Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2017 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] The problem with pIqaD On 5 July 2017 at 14:19, André Müller <esperantist@gmail.com> wrote:
Personally, I can't read much of the pIqaD (gotta learn it too), but the letter match the common-style Klingon pIqaD. With some eyeball matching and imagination I think you can figure out which letter is which. I think the first line ends in -ta'. First word of the second line is qul, etc.
It says: {ghetwI' luwIvlu'ta'. qul yIchu'} -- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
André Müller <esperantist@gmail.com> wrote:
Personally, I can't read much of the pIqaD (gotta learn it too), but the letter match the common-style Klingon pIqaD. With some eyeball matching and imagination I think you can figure out which letter is which. I think the first line ends in -ta'. First word of the second line is qul, etc.
De'vID:
It says: {ghetwI' luwIvlu'ta'. qul yIchu'}
From the announcement at: http://www.cbs.com/shows/star-trek-discovery/news/1006273/star-trek-discover... If you don't have a universal translator handy, the first line says, "The actors have been chosen." The second line says, "Light the Fire." We'll let you discover what that really means. No really new vocabulary but if Okrand wrote or vetted this (anyone know?) as he may well have done - 1. it's an official announcement; and 2. notice the absence of a redundant plural suffix implied with {luwIvlu'ta'} on {ghetwI'} - we now have another word for "actor/actress", derived from {ghet}: (HQ 12.3:8): {Qaq} "behave falsely honorably, behave in a falsely honorable manner" ... is different from {toj} "deceive" and {ghet} "pretend", neither of which has this kind of connection to honor ... {ghet} and {ghetwI'} "pretender" generally do not imply deception, but simply role-playing. (De’vID, 11/10/2015): At ... qepHom [2011], Okrand said a bunch of things about what verbs take what objects ... One of the words that [Okrand] used to illustrate this was {ghet}. You can say {vulqangan jIH 'e' vIghet". in addition to {DawI'} derived from {Da} "behave as, act in the manner of" used on this list for years, which appeared in the "Message to Kronos": qatlh tlhIngan lut luja' tera'ngan DawI'pu'lI'? Why are your Earthling actors telling a Klingon story? ('u'-MTK) As for the difference between the two...? -- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
Am 05.07.2017 um 17:07 schrieb Steven Boozer:
No really new vocabulary but if Okrand wrote or vetted this (anyone know?)
As far as I know, Okrand was NOT involved with this, but one or even more known Klingonists had been asked for a translation. Some details about this announcement are collected on the Klingon language Wiki: http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
As for the difference between the two...?
I'm not so sure which one is to be preferred, but collected some data on it in the Wiki: http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Actor -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
I was speaking to Dr. Okrand in December about this subject. He told me that when he was writing the Message to Kronos he did not ask Maltz about it, but rather pulled out Hamlet to see what word was used there. When I asked him about which word was correct or if there was a difference in meaning, he only said that it was interesting that there seemed to be two words. Jeremy ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> Sent: Wednesday, July 5, 2017 10:07 AM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] The problem with pIqaD André Müller <esperantist@gmail.com> wrote:
Personally, I can't read much of the pIqaD (gotta learn it too), but the letter match the common-style Klingon pIqaD. With some eyeball matching and imagination I think you can figure out which letter is which. I think the first line ends in -ta'. First word of the second line is qul, etc.
De'vID:
It says: {ghetwI' luwIvlu'ta'. qul yIchu'}
From the announcement at: http://www.cbs.com/shows/star-trek-discovery/news/1006273/star-trek-discover... [http://wwwimage5.cbsstatic.com/thumbnails/photos/w1200-h630-c1200:630/blog/9a302778b3e66853_star_trek_discovery_klingon_cast_1920.jpg]<http://www.cbs.com/shows/star-trek-discovery/news/1006273/star-trek-discovery-reveals-klingon-characters-/>
Star Trek: Discovery Reveals Klingon Characters - CBS.com<http://www.cbs.com/shows/star-trek-discovery/news/1006273/star-trek-discovery-reveals-klingon-characters-/> www.cbs.com Star Trek: Discovery Reveals Klingon Characters Chris Obi and Mary Chieffo have joined the cast. Plus, can you decipher these Klingon lines? If you don't have a universal translator handy, the first line says, "The actors have been chosen." The second line says, "Light the Fire." We'll let you discover what that really means. No really new vocabulary but if Okrand wrote or vetted this (anyone know?) as he may well have done - 1. it's an official announcement; and 2. notice the absence of a redundant plural suffix implied with {luwIvlu'ta'} on {ghetwI'} - we now have another word for "actor/actress", derived from {ghet}: (HQ 12.3:8): {Qaq} "behave falsely honorably, behave in a falsely honorable manner" ... is different from {toj} "deceive" and {ghet} "pretend", neither of which has this kind of connection to honor ... {ghet} and {ghetwI'} "pretender" generally do not imply deception, but simply role-playing. (De’vID, 11/10/2015): At ... qepHom [2011], Okrand said a bunch of things about what verbs take what objects ... One of the words that [Okrand] used to illustrate this was {ghet}. You can say {vulqangan jIH 'e' vIghet". in addition to {DawI'} derived from {Da} "behave as, act in the manner of" used on this list for years, which appeared in the "Message to Kronos": qatlh tlhIngan lut luja' tera'ngan DawI'pu'lI'? Why are your Earthling actors telling a Klingon story? ('u'-MTK) As for the difference between the two...? -- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
No really new vocabulary but if Okrand wrote or vetted this (anyone know?) as he may well have done - 1. it's an official announcement; and 2. notice the absence of a redundant plural suffix implied with {luwIvlu'ta'} on {ghetwI'} - we now have another word for "actor/actress", derived from {ghet}:
(HQ 12.3:8): {Qaq} "behave falsely honorably, behave in a falsely honorable manner" ... is different from {toj} "deceive" and {ghet} "pretend", neither of which has this kind of connection to honor ... {ghet} and {ghetwI'} "pretender" generally do not imply deception, but simply role-playing.
(De’vID, 11/10/2015): At ... qepHom [2011], Okrand said a bunch of things about what verbs take what objects ... One of the words that [Okrand] used to illustrate this was {ghet}. You can say {vulqangan jIH 'e' vIghet".
in addition to {DawI'} derived from {Da} "behave as, act in the manner of" used on this list for years, which appeared in the "Message to Kronos":
qatlh tlhIngan lut luja' tera'ngan DawI'pu'lI'? Why are your Earthling actors telling a Klingon story? ('u'-MTK)
As for the difference between the two...? <http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org>
If I had to guess, based mostly on the English glosses and the few bits of canon, I would interpret the difference in meaning to be that {ghet} is a much more specific word, implying that someone is intentionally playing a specific role or behaving as if some counterfactual situation were true. Whereas {Da} is much more broad, and while it can include some of the concepts of {ghet}, it can also be used metaphorically, generically, or specifically, with or without intent, and with or without knowledge that one is acting in such a manner. However, I am obviously not Maltz. Personally, I'm more curious about how {lIl} is different from {Da} and {ghet}.
Am 06.07.2017 um 03:53 schrieb nIqolay Q:
I would interpret the difference in meaning to be that {ghet} is a much more specific word, implying that someone is intentionally playing a specific role or behaving as if some counterfactual situation were true. Whereas {Da} is much more broad, and while it can include some of the concepts of {ghet}
Yes; Remember the phrase {nepwI' Daba'} "he behaves like a liar" (TKDA). This is certainly not intentional, and also not only pretending.
Personally, I'm more curious about how {lIl} is different from {Da} and {ghet}.
The verb lIl was released for the action of a magician. You know, magicians cannot do "real" magic, they do tricks. So they cannot say that are magicicians (or "sorcerer", if you prefer), but they do what magicians do. When my 6 year old daughter moves like a magician she has seen before, I'd use {Da}. When I see actors playing a magician like Harry Potter, I suggest {ghet}, and a magician standing on stage does not only "pretend" to be a magician, he "impersonates" him. Yes, he may also {Da} a magician, but when on stage, it's his job to create the illusion of being a true magician, he does the job of a magician. BTW, did you know there is a big flight simulator in the French city of Lille? -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Actor
Am 05.07.2017 um 09:39 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
Are these new characters anywhere to be found in the klingon language wiki ? Or anywhere else ?
We have only seen this set of letters, so there are some missing. The message including the letters can be found on the wiki, ineed: http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher
participants (13)
-
Alan Anderson -
André Müller -
David Holt -
De'vID -
ghunchu'wI' 'utlh
-
Jeremy Silver -
Lieven -
mayqel qunenoS -
nIqolay Q -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel -
Terrence Donnelly -
Tim Stoffel