Re: [tlhIngan Hol] When better is missing go with preferable
the million dollar question (as americans say) now arises: what is the exact opposite of {qaq} ? is there one in klingon ? qunnoq ghogh HablI'wIjvo' vIngeHta' On 18 Aug 2016 9:21 p.m., "Steven Boozer" <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote: qunnoq :
Thousand times I came across the need to express in klingon the word "better". And a thousand times I came up with nothing, because in klingon we can't form comparatives in the way good-better-best. Until just a minute ago, a light bulb lit inside my head! And I[] realized that in the place of the absent "better", we can use {qaq} instead. Problem solved !
FYI we have two sentences with {qaq} - ironically in a law'/puS comparative: tlhutlhmeH HIq ngeb qaq law' bIQ qaq puS Drinking fake ale is better than drinking water. TKW QamvIS Hegh qaq law' torvIS yIn qaq puS Better to die on our feet than live on our knees. ST6 ("Dying while standing is preferable to living while kneeling" TKW) Okrand also discussed [qaq} a bit: (st.klingon): ... the answer to the question {jarlIj qaq nuq?} ("What is your preferable month?") would presumably be a definition of your favorite month ... What you really mean to ask is something like "Of all the months, which one do you prefer?" ... You use {qaq}, "be preferable", adjectivally ({jarlIj qaq} is "your preferable month"). I think what you mean is better expressed by using the verb {maS} "prefer" with you as the subject... -- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 8/18/2016 2:36 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
what is the exact opposite of {qaq} ? is there one in klingon ?
*qaqHa'* * *:-D -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 2:40 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 8/18/2016 2:36 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
what is the exact opposite of {qaq} ? is there one in klingon ?
{muS}, {par}, {qaqbe'}? English doesn't appear to have any kind of true antonym for "prefer" either.
*qaqHa'*
{qaqHa'} doesn't work for me as an exact opposite, since {-Ha'} means that the {qaq}ing was undone or misdone (so I used to {qaq} it but don't anymore, or I said I {qaq} something mistakenly when I didn't really {qaq} it). TKD: "This negative suffix implies not merely that something is not done (as does -be'), but that there is a change of state: something that was previously done is now undone. For convenience, it will here be translated as undo, but it is closer to the English prefixes mis-, de-, dis- (as in misunderstand, demystify, disentangle). It is also used if something is done wrongly." qurgh
On 8/18/2016 3:18 PM, qurgh lungqIj wrote:
On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 2:40 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:
On 8/18/2016 2:36 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
what is the exact opposite of {qaq} ? is there one in klingon ?
{muS}, {par}, {qaqbe'}?
English doesn't appear to have any kind of true antonym for "prefer" either.
*qaqHa'*
{qaqHa'} doesn't work for me as an exact opposite, since {-Ha'} means that the {qaq}ing was undone or misdone (so I used to {qaq} it but don't anymore, or I said I {qaq} something mistakenly when I didn't really {qaq} it).
TKD: "This negative suffix implies not merely that something is not done (as does -be'), but that there is a change of state: something that was previously done is now undone. For convenience, it will here be translated as undo, but it is closer to the English prefixes mis-, de-, dis- (as in misunderstand, demystify, disentangle). It is also used if something is done wrongly."
Yes, yes, so sayeth the Dictionary. You clipped out my smiley. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 2:36 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
what is the exact opposite of {qaq} ? is there one in klingon ?
Is there one in Greek? I can't come up with a good one in English, unless "undesireable" is what you're thinking. In that case, {'up} or {natlh} might work, or even just {qab}. What do you mean by "exact opposite" anyway? I suppose if you think "preferable" and "most preferable" mean the same thing, "least preferable" would be what you're going for. In Klingon, you can swap the nouns in a comparative in order to get the opposite meaning. -- ghunchu'wI'
Am 18.08.2016 um 22:11 schrieb Alan Anderson:
On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 2:36 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
what is the exact opposite of {qaq} ? is there one in klingon ?
What was the problem with {QaQ} anyway? Maybe I missed your message, but I remember you saying there is no way to espress "good, better, best". Really? QaQ = good {QaQbej bomvam.} "This song is definitely good." {bomvam QaQ law', bomvetlh QaQ puS} "This song is better than the other one." {bomvam QaQ law', Hoch QaQ puS} "This song is the best of all." So where's the problem? -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
jIH:
what is the exact opposite of {qaq} ? is there one in klingon ? ghunchu'wI': Is there one in Greek?
hmm.. good question. now that I'm thinking of it, as a single word no ; there isn't one in greek either. lieven:
What was the problem with {QaQ} anyway? Maybe I missed your message, but I remember you saying there is no way to espress "good, better, best". Really?
I was trying to find a way to express "better" by using a single word ; not through the use of suffixes and context, or the {law'/puS} construction. for example "my phone is better" ; not "my phone is better than yours". qunnoq On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 11:24 PM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 18.08.2016 um 22:11 schrieb Alan Anderson:
On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 2:36 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
what is the exact opposite of {qaq} ? is there one in klingon ?
What was the problem with {QaQ} anyway? Maybe I missed your message, but I remember you saying there is no way to espress "good, better, best". Really?
QaQ = good
{QaQbej bomvam.} "This song is definitely good."
{bomvam QaQ law', bomvetlh QaQ puS} "This song is better than the other one."
{bomvam QaQ law', Hoch QaQ puS} "This song is the best of all."
So where's the problem?
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
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Am 19.08.2016 um 08:52 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
I was trying to find a way to express "better" by using a single word ; not through the use of suffixes and context, or the {law'/puS} construction.
for example "my phone is better" ; not "my phone is better than yours".
Well, then your problem is not the word "better" but any superlative. There never is a single word (AFAIK) "larger", "smarter", etc. All of these have to be expressed using the law'/puS. If we go into detail, chapter TKD 6.6 has skipped the "one is x-er" expression, only giving examples for "A is x-er than B" (comparing TWO things) and then "A is the x-est of all". What it does explicitely say, is that that "the verb of quality must be said twice". By the way, you only happen to be fortunate having the verb {qaq} working in your question, but it's still not the same as "better". Maybe one thing is sureley better than another, but I may prefer the worse anyway. The word "better" in the translations of "it is better to die standing..." is confusing and not correct, as it is only a person's opinion: General Chang "prefers" to die fighting. PS: since {qaq} was introduced in the addendum of TKD, I suppose it was the actor's mispronunciation of {QaQ}. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
lieven:
since {qaq} was introduced in the addendum of TKD, I suppose it was the actor's mispronunciation of {QaQ}
lucky for us ! On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 10:59 AM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 19.08.2016 um 08:52 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
I was trying to find a way to express "better" by using a single word ; not through the use of suffixes and context, or the {law'/puS} construction.
for example "my phone is better" ; not "my phone is better than yours".
Well, then your problem is not the word "better" but any superlative.
There never is a single word (AFAIK) "larger", "smarter", etc. All of these have to be expressed using the law'/puS.
If we go into detail, chapter TKD 6.6 has skipped the "one is x-er" expression, only giving examples for "A is x-er than B" (comparing TWO things) and then "A is the x-est of all". What it does explicitely say, is that that "the verb of quality must be said twice".
By the way, you only happen to be fortunate having the verb {qaq} working in your question, but it's still not the same as "better". Maybe one thing is sureley better than another, but I may prefer the worse anyway.
The word "better" in the translations of "it is better to die standing..." is confusing and not correct, as it is only a person's opinion: General Chang "prefers" to die fighting.
PS: since {qaq} was introduced in the addendum of TKD, I suppose it was the actor's mispronunciation of {QaQ}.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
lieven:
Maybe one thing is surely better than another, but I may prefer the worse anyway.
Perhaps, this will suck us into an infinite loop, but if we acknowledge something as being better then wouldn't this be by definition preferable ? And if we acknowledge something as being preferable, then again isn't that by definition better ? And even if we acknowledge one thing as being better, still preferring the worst (thus the latter being preferable), then for the person who makes the choice, then the preferable -for him- isn't the better even if its worst ? This seems like a temporal loop ! Or a linguistic one if you prefer ! hehehe qunnoq On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 11:44 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
lieven:
since {qaq} was introduced in the addendum of TKD, I suppose it was the actor's mispronunciation of {QaQ}
lucky for us !
On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 10:59 AM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 19.08.2016 um 08:52 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
I was trying to find a way to express "better" by using a single word ; not through the use of suffixes and context, or the {law'/puS} construction.
for example "my phone is better" ; not "my phone is better than yours".
Well, then your problem is not the word "better" but any superlative.
There never is a single word (AFAIK) "larger", "smarter", etc. All of these have to be expressed using the law'/puS.
If we go into detail, chapter TKD 6.6 has skipped the "one is x-er" expression, only giving examples for "A is x-er than B" (comparing TWO things) and then "A is the x-est of all". What it does explicitely say, is that that "the verb of quality must be said twice".
By the way, you only happen to be fortunate having the verb {qaq} working in your question, but it's still not the same as "better". Maybe one thing is sureley better than another, but I may prefer the worse anyway.
The word "better" in the translations of "it is better to die standing..." is confusing and not correct, as it is only a person's opinion: General Chang "prefers" to die fighting.
PS: since {qaq} was introduced in the addendum of TKD, I suppose it was the actor's mispronunciation of {QaQ}.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
jatlh mayqel qunenoS:
I was trying to find a way to express "better" by using a single word; not through the use of suffixes and context, or the {law'/puS} construction.
for example "my phone is better" ; not "my phone is better than yours".
I have to admit that I don't think I understand what you mean by, "my phone is better". "Better" is a comparative. It has to compare at least two things. If you said that to me, I would probably say, "Better than what?" Perhaps some context would help. If I was talking a lot about how great my phone was and you said, "My phone is better," I think we could all assume that you meant, "My phone is better than your phone." Fortunately, Klingon DOES allow us to say that, we just can't leave off the second half to be assumed, we must state it explicitly and fully. I can't imagine any situation where "better" does not at least assume a second thing for comparison. Please give me a more complete example with full context. Jeremy
David Holt :
Please give me a more complete example with full context.
You're right on the fact that I wouldn't use the phrase "my phone is better" at the beginning of a conversation, without specifying the reason. However, if I was writing a review comparing two phones, and at the end of the comparison came to an overall conclusion, then I would say something like "overall this phone is better". And if I was writing in klingon, then I would say "this phone is preferable". qunnoq On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 2:30 AM, David Holt <kenjutsuka@live.com> wrote:
jatlh mayqel qunenoS:
I was trying to find a way to express "better" by using a single word; not through the use of suffixes and context, or the {law'/puS} construction.
for example "my phone is better" ; not "my phone is better than yours".
I have to admit that I don't think I understand what you mean by, "my phone is better". "Better" is a comparative. It has to compare at least two things. If you said that to me, I would probably say, "Better than what?" Perhaps some context would help. If I was talking a lot about how great my phone was and you said, "My phone is better," I think we could all assume that you meant, "My phone is better than your phone." Fortunately, Klingon DOES allow us to say that, we just can't leave off the second half to be assumed, we must state it explicitly and fully. I can't imagine any situation where "better" does not at least assume a second thing for comparison. Please give me a more complete example with full context.
Jeremy
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Am 23.08.2016 um 08:02 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
However, if I was writing a review comparing two phones, and at the end of the comparison came to an overall conclusion, then I would say something like "overall this phone is better".
And if I was writing in klingon, then I would say "this phone is preferable".
I'm beginning to understand now. And there still is a great difference between "better" and "preferable", which I can explain on this example very well: The iPhone YZ is "better", because it is larger, faster, bigger, has more memory, higher quality and so one. But the Samsung XY is "preferable", because it is able to run the {boQwI'} app. chaq iPhone QaQ law', Hoch QaQ puS. 'ach qaqtaH Samsung, boQwI' nIqHom lo'laHmo'. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/BoQwI
lieven, I see your point and I agree with you. There is a definite difference between the words {QaQ} and {qaq}. The question is : Is this difference important ? And the answer (according to my opinion) would be "it depends on the context". Surely there are numerous cases, where the use of {QaQ} through the "traditional" law'/puS construction would be the best way to go ; and of course there would be other cases as well where the use of a simple {qaq} would be correct too. All in all (if I understand this american phrase correctly), I believe {qaq} is a beautiful alternative to have, in our linguistic arsenal. And an irrelevant question : reH lugh'eghmoH google mail ! chay' 'e' vImev ? qunnoq On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 9:24 AM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 23.08.2016 um 08:02 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
However, if I was writing a review comparing two phones, and at the end of the comparison came to an overall conclusion, then I would say something like "overall this phone is better".
And if I was writing in klingon, then I would say "this phone is preferable".
I'm beginning to understand now. And there still is a great difference between "better" and "preferable", which I can explain on this example very well:
The iPhone YZ is "better", because it is larger, faster, bigger, has more memory, higher quality and so one.
But the Samsung XY is "preferable", because it is able to run the {boQwI'} app.
chaq iPhone QaQ law', Hoch QaQ puS. 'ach qaqtaH Samsung, boQwI' nIqHom lo'laHmo'.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/BoQwI
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On 8/23/2016 2:02 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
You're right on the fact that I wouldn't use the phrase "my phone is better" at the beginning of a conversation, without specifying the reason.
However, if I was writing a review comparing two phones, and at the end of the comparison came to an overall conclusion, then I would say something like "overall this phone is better".
You'd still add the "than that phone" part in the Klingon. /blah, blah, blah,/ 'ach... Hoch qellu'DI' ghogh HablI'vam QaQ law' ghogh HablI'vetlh QaQ puS. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
participants (6)
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Alan Anderson -
David Holt -
Lieven -
mayqel qunenoS -
qurgh lungqIj -
SuStel