thoughts on Qeq face (orient towards)
qaStaHvIS qep'a' cha'maH SochDIch, {Qeq} mu' 'otHa'pu' 'oqranD. 'ej mu'vam jIyweS DeltaHvIS, jatlhpu' 'oqranD:
For the idea of Face (orient towards) – The object is the one oriented toward someone or something, and the thing or person being faced is marked with –Daq. With this meaning, this verb is often used with –‘egh or –chuq.
mu'vam vIlo'choHpu'DI', bI'reS jIqonpu': jul luQeqpu' vIghro' the cats faced the sun 'a mujlaw' {Qeq} lo'vam tugh 'e' vItlhoj. vaj tagha' jIqonpu': julDaq Qeq'eghpu' vIghro'mey the cats oriented themselves towards the sun 'a mumISchoHmoHpu' vay''e' jatlhpu'bogh 'oqranD:
this verb is often used with –‘egh or –chuq.
ghorgh {Qeq} {-chuq} *je* lulo'nISlu' ? ghorgh quqnIS {Qeq} {-chuq} je ? jIjangmeH, mu'tlhegh veb vIqonpu': julDaq Qeqchuqpu' Duj the ships oriented each other towards the sun 'a nuq 'oH wanI''e' Delbogh mu'tlheghvam ? cha' Duj tu'lu', 'ej wa' Duj Quv lISmeH latlh, chaq tIH lo', 'ej tagha' tIHvammo' lurgh neHbogh Hoch Duj chavpu' Dujvam. ~ Qa'yIn
On 8/18/2020 9:16 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
this verb is often used with –‘egh or –chuq. ghorgh {Qeq} {-chuq}*je* lulo'nISlu' ? ghorgh quqnIS {Qeq} {-chuq} je ? jIjangmeH, mu'tlhegh veb vIqonpu':
ghu' lI''e' Delbogh /Qeqchuq/ vIjallaHbe'. DuHba' ghu', 'ach motlhbe'law'. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
'oqranD:
this verb is often used with –‘egh or –chuq. jIH: ghorgh {Qeq} {-chuq} *je* lulo'nISlu' ? ghorgh quqnIS {Qeq} {-chuq} je ? jIjangmeH, mu'tlhegh veb vIqonpu': SuStel: ghu' lI''e' Delbogh Qeqchuq vIjallaHbe'. DuHba' ghu', 'ach motlhbe'law'.
bIlugh. {Qeqchuq} ghantoH vijalmeH, jInIDqu'taH, qaStaHvIS poH nI'.. 'a wotvam DeltaHvIS 'oqranD, qatlh QIjlaw'ghachvam 'otHa'pu' ? qatlh maHvaD {Qeqchuq} QIjchu'pu'be' ? chaq not maSov.. ~ Qa'yIn
On 8/18/2020 9:57 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
'a wotvam DeltaHvIS 'oqranD, qatlh QIjlaw'ghachvam 'otHa'pu' ? qatlh maHvaD {Qeqchuq} QIjchu'pu'be' ?
chaq not maSov..
I suspect he was thinking: *Qeq* means /aim,/ and I'm going to generalize that /orient something./ That means the subject of the verb has to be "aiming" the object, so the thing faced has to be the locative. But to talk about someone or something "facing" something else, someone needs to cause the object to be oriented toward the target? Who is the subject? Mostly, when you talk about someone facing something, no one is making someone else face something, the object makes itself face something. That's reflexive, and the two reflexive suffixes are *-'egh* and *-chuq.* So someone can face themselves at something, or plural someones can—OH LOOK, A SQUIRREL! In other words, I don't think he considered whether *-chuq* is actually useful. I think he only considered the syntax, that the object is also the subject. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 16:12, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 8/18/2020 9:57 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
'a wotvam DeltaHvIS 'oqranD, qatlh QIjlaw'ghachvam 'otHa'pu' ? qatlh maHvaD {Qeqchuq} QIjchu'pu'be' ?
chaq not maSov..
I suspect he was thinking: *Qeq* means *aim,* and I'm going to generalize that *orient something.* That means the subject of the verb has to be "aiming" the object, so the thing faced has to be the locative. But to talk about someone or something "facing" something else, someone needs to cause the object to be oriented toward the target? Who is the subject? Mostly, when you talk about someone facing something, no one is making someone else face something, the object makes itself face something. That's reflexive, and the two reflexive suffixes are *-'egh* and *-chuq.* So someone can face themselves at something, or plural someones can—OH LOOK, A SQUIRREL!
In other words, I don't think he considered whether *-chuq* is actually useful. I think he only considered the syntax, that the object is also the subject.
I think he might've intended that {Qeq} is used with {-chuq} to indicate that two people (or things) face each other, either without having thought about how that doesn't really follow from the parts or forgetting to explain that it's an idiom or fossilised expression or whatever. I know that he says that {-Daq} marks the thing or person being faced, and that still works for {-'egh}. When he says "with this meaning", I read it as indicating "the face/orient meaning of {Qeq} rather than the aim [a weapon] meaning", and facing (oneself) towards something and two (or more) people or things facing each other are common occurrences. I think he might've been confused by the gloss "aim (at)". "Aim at each other" obviously means "face each other", right? {SoHDaq jIQeq'egh} "I aim myself at you", "I face you" {jIHDaq bIQeq'egh} "You aim yourself at me", "You face me" ?{maQeqchuq} "We aim at each other", "We face each other" -- De'vID
vIchup: julDaq Qeq Duj. The ship faces the Sun. Qeqchuq Duj. The ships face each other. SIla’Daq Qeq’egh HoD. The captain faced himself in the mirror. He didn’t merely face the mirror. He wasn’t standing off to the side, looking at someone else in the mirror. He faced himself in the mirror. We can’t get too hung up trying to make prepositions in English directly match a literal translation of Klingon. These glosses and verbal guidelines are primarily intended to explain how a word conveys meaning and works grammatically in Klingon. If {Qeq} has what English would consider a direct object as in “The ship faces the Sun,” or a prepositional object “The ship orients itself toward the Sun”, that noun requires {-Daq} in Klingon. If the thing one faces is another member of the first person plural subject, you use {-chuq} and there is no use for {-Daq} because there is no explicit noun indicating the target direction one is facing. If one faces one’s self, you use {-‘egh} and again, you have no need for {-Daq}. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Aug 18, 2020, at 9:42 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 8/18/2020 9:16 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
this verb is often used with –‘egh or –chuq. ghorgh {Qeq} {-chuq} *je* lulo'nISlu' ? ghorgh quqnIS {Qeq} {-chuq} je ? jIjangmeH, mu'tlhegh veb vIqonpu': ghu' lI''e' Delbogh Qeqchuq vIjallaHbe'. DuHba' ghu', 'ach motlhbe'law'.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 8/18/2020 10:19 AM, Will Martin wrote:
vIchup:
julDaq Qeq Duj.
The ship faces the Sun.
Qeqchuq Duj.
The ships face each other.
No. Okrand was very specific. The object is the entity which is being oriented toward the locative. The subject causes this orientation. /The ship faces the sun. / If you just want to report the ship's orientation (e.g., the ship is currently facing the sun), then you either have to bring in a new subject, use a reflexive one, or use an indefinite one: *julDaq Duj Qeqpu' DeghwI' */The helmsman faced the ship toward the sun./ *julDaq Qeqpu''egh Duj */The ship faced itself toward the sun./ *julDaq Duj Qeqlu'pu' */The ship has been faced toward the sun./ I used perfective here because to describe the ship currently facing the sun, it's logical that the action that caused this orientation is finished. /The ships face each other./ This is non-trivial to translate into Klingon, since we don't have reflexive locatives. *tlhIngan DujDaq DIvI' Duj Qeqlu'pu' 'ej DIvI' DujDaq tlhIngan Duj Qeqlu'pu' */The Klingon and Federation ships face each other./ Variations, etc. You might get away with something like *DujmeyDaq Dujmey luQeqlu'pu' */The ships face the ships./ //
SIla’Daq Qeq’egh HoD.
The captain faced himself in the mirror. He didn’t merely face the mirror. He wasn’t standing off to the side, looking at someone else in the mirror. He faced himself in the mirror.
This sentence means that the captain stood in such a position that he was oriented toward the mirror. Literally it means /The captain aimed himself toward the mirror./ Remember, *Qeq* meaning /face/ is just a generalization of the idea of aiming. The syntax remains the same.
We can’t get too hung up trying to make prepositions in English directly match a literal translation of Klingon. These glosses and verbal guidelines are primarily intended to explain how a word conveys meaning and works grammatically in Klingon.
No indeed, but we do have to pay attention when Okrand explicitly tells us the grammar of a word, and he has done so here.
If {Qeq} has what English would consider a direct object as in “The ship faces the Sun,” or a prepositional object “The ship orients itself toward the Sun”, that noun requires {-Daq} in Klingon.
Don't try to turn this into a formula. It's bound to get messed up in the more complex grammar of English /face./ In English, the object of /face/ can be both the target of orientation (/I face the sun;/ I stand orientated toward the sun) and the entity that is oriented (/I face the captain toward the sun;/ I turn the captain so that he is oriented toward the sun). Klingon *Qeq* corresponds to the latter, not the former. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 8/18/2020 11:06 AM, SuStel wrote:
*julDaq Qeqpu''egh Duj */The ship faced itself toward the sun./
Sorry, that should have been *Qeq'eghpu'.* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Thanks for the clarification. The original post in this thread did not provide sufficient context to know that the agent/subject directs the object to face the location of another noun, such that a steersman faces/orients a ship to the location of a person/place/thing. In that case, if the agent is both the one doing the steering and the thing being steered, the reflexive {-‘egh} would be quite naturally appropriate. {-chuq} would, indeed, be… special. Two different agents would be directing one entity to face the location of the other of two agents…? Two different agents would cause each other to direct one entity to face the location of a person/place/thing? Like all those noir films with two people fighting over a pistol until someone gets shot, or two people fighting over a steering wheel until the car crashes? Two different agents cause two different objects to orient themselves to the location of the other agent or the other object? jIwuQchoH… This, of course, makes the mirror and time travel examples more complicated, since there is no noun for “self”. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Aug 18, 2020, at 11:06 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 8/18/2020 10:19 AM, Will Martin wrote:
vIchup:
julDaq Qeq Duj.
The ship faces the Sun.
Qeqchuq Duj.
The ships face each other. No. Okrand was very specific. The object is the entity which is being oriented toward the locative. The subject causes this orientation.
The ship faces the sun.
If you just want to report the ship's orientation (e.g., the ship is currently facing the sun), then you either have to bring in a new subject, use a reflexive one, or use an indefinite one:
julDaq Duj Qeqpu' DeghwI' The helmsman faced the ship toward the sun.
julDaq Qeqpu''egh Duj The ship faced itself toward the sun.
julDaq Duj Qeqlu'pu' The ship has been faced toward the sun.
I used perfective here because to describe the ship currently facing the sun, it's logical that the action that caused this orientation is finished.
The ships face each other.
This is non-trivial to translate into Klingon, since we don't have reflexive locatives.
tlhIngan DujDaq DIvI' Duj Qeqlu'pu' 'ej DIvI' DujDaq tlhIngan Duj Qeqlu'pu' The Klingon and Federation ships face each other.
Variations, etc.
You might get away with something like
DujmeyDaq Dujmey luQeqlu'pu' The ships face the ships.
SIla’Daq Qeq’egh HoD.
The captain faced himself in the mirror. He didn’t merely face the mirror. He wasn’t standing off to the side, looking at someone else in the mirror. He faced himself in the mirror. This sentence means that the captain stood in such a position that he was oriented toward the mirror. Literally it means The captain aimed himself toward the mirror. Remember, Qeq meaning face is just a generalization of the idea of aiming. The syntax remains the same.
We can’t get too hung up trying to make prepositions in English directly match a literal translation of Klingon. These glosses and verbal guidelines are primarily intended to explain how a word conveys meaning and works grammatically in Klingon. No indeed, but we do have to pay attention when Okrand explicitly tells us the grammar of a word, and he has done so here.
If {Qeq} has what English would consider a direct object as in “The ship faces the Sun,” or a prepositional object “The ship orients itself toward the Sun”, that noun requires {-Daq} in Klingon. Don't try to turn this into a formula. It's bound to get messed up in the more complex grammar of English face. In English, the object of face can be both the target of orientation (I face the sun; I stand orientated toward the sun) and the entity that is oriented (I face the captain toward the sun; I turn the captain so that he is oriented toward the sun). Klingon Qeq corresponds to the latter, not the former.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
And for those who need an example of {-‘egh} without {SIla’Daq}, imagine time travel. If I go into the past and encounter myself, and notice that self before the younger self notices me, then: jIQeq’egh. And once that younger self noticed me and turned to face me: maQeqchuq. This is different from {SIla’Daq jIQeq’egh} because in this example, there is only one me doing the noticing and orienting. The self[qoq] in the mirror is merely reflecting my orientation, while each of those who met through time travel made the choice to orient himself toward the other. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Aug 18, 2020, at 9:42 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 8/18/2020 9:16 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
this verb is often used with –‘egh or –chuq. ghorgh {Qeq} {-chuq} *je* lulo'nISlu' ? ghorgh quqnIS {Qeq} {-chuq} je ? jIjangmeH, mu'tlhegh veb vIqonpu': ghu' lI''e' Delbogh Qeqchuq vIjallaHbe'. DuHba' ghu', 'ach motlhbe'law'.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
charghwI', Daj buSHachmeylIj, 'a {-Daq} lulo'be' 'op ghantoHlIj. jatlhpu' 'oqranD: "the thing or person being faced is marked with –Daq". 'utlaw' {-Daq} mojaq, {Qeq} wot wIlo'taHvIS. chaq *reH* {-Daq} mojaq wIlo'nIS, {Qeq} wot wIlo'taHvIS. ~ Qa'yIn
participants (4)
-
De'vID -
mayqel qunen'oS -
SuStel -
Will Martin