Can I place on an epithet, noun suffixes ? For example: {vIghro'wIj tIQ tIch petaQvam} this petaQ insulted my ancient cat Is this correct ? ~ hjkhjkj
Why not? They are nouns after all. I found four examples with a noun suffix: HurDaq tu'HomI'raHvetlh yIlan Get that piece of junk out of here! (KCD) nItlhejbogh petaQmey tInuD Look at these p'takhs at your side [sic] (PB) jach veqlargh jatlh muqaD vay' 'ej ghe'tor 'el porgh nuqDaq ghaH petaQ'e' [translation unavailable] (PB) petaQvam vIqopbej QIt ghaHvaD yIn Hegh je vIghojmoH 'ej 'oy' SIQ ghaH [translation unavailable] (PB) -- Voragh Ca'Non Master of the Klingons -----Original Message----- From: mayqel qunen'oS Can I place on an epithet, noun suffixes ? For example: {vIghro'wIj tIQ tIch petaQvam} this petaQ insulted my ancient cat Is this correct ?
On 6/28/2019 9:19 AM, Steven Boozer wrote:
Can I place on an epithet, noun suffixes ?
Why not? They are nouns after all.
Are they? They certainly behave that way, but I don't think it's anywhere stated that they are. It's a reasonable question, especially for someone who hasn't got all the source material in electronic form. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel:
And yes, the petaQmey is used for beings > capable of using language. They're not scattered all about in the passage, so it's > being used insultingly.
I can't understand though, why the {-mey} instead of {-pu'}. Is this some special case, as in {Dojmey}, which has {-mey} even if referring to beings capable of language ? SuStel:
But in your sentence, the action of the insult is completed, and your English sentence is conveying it that way. Therefore this should be vIghro'wIj tIQ tIchpu' petaQvam This p'takh insulted my ancient cat.
Oh yes, you're right, I obviously dropped the ball on this one.. ~ hkkhhk
On 6/28/2019 9:44 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
SuStel:
And yes, the petaQmey is used for beings > capable of using language. They're not scattered all about in the passage, so it's > being used insultingly.
I can't understand though, why the {-mey} instead of {-pu'}. Is this some special case, as in {Dojmey}, which has {-mey} even if referring to beings capable of language ?
It's because they're /p'takhs!/ What other reason do you need? The full stanza is: *nItlhejbogh petaQmey tInuD chaHvaD nIb yan wIjwI' jan je* /Look at these p'takhs at your side, They don't know how to distinguish A sword from a plough!/ The idea is that they're so stupid, Molor is going to refer to them as if they were things instead of people. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 9:44 AM mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I can't understand though, why the {-mey} instead of {-pu'}. Is this some special case, as in {Dojmey}, which has {-mey} even if referring to beings capable of language ?
KGT says that using the non-language-user possessive suffixes (with the example of {joHwIj} instead of {joHwI'}) is considered insulting, as it implies the {joH} in question is a lesser kind of being. A similar principle might apply to the plural suffixes, though I don't think it's explicit anywhere. That is, {petaQmey} might be used as an additional layer of insult to imply that the p'tahks are lesser beings, without the brainpower necessary to use language like a person. It could also mean "p'tahks all over the place", but if the p'tahks are in one place, the insulting meaning might be intended. (It might also be a typo that just happens to be easy to explain away as intentional.)
Epithets are labeled as noun in my notes, but I may have done that years ago. Could someone check TKD? -- Voragh -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of SuStel On 6/28/2019 9:19 AM, Steven Boozer wrote:
Can I place on an epithet, noun suffixes ?
Why not? They are nouns after all.
Are they? They certainly behave that way, but I don't think it's anywhere stated that they are. It's a reasonable question, especially for someone who hasn't got all the source material in electronic form. tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 6/28/2019 9:59 AM, Steven Boozer wrote:
Epithets are labeled as noun in my notes, but I may have done that years ago. Could someone check TKD?
I checked before replying. I could find no reference to their being nouns. Curses are first introduced in the original section 5.5 as exclamations. However, only three words that are really invectives, not epithets, are given. Then, in the addendum section 5.5, it introduces the categories of epithets and general invectives. These are still labeled as exclamations. However, none of the curse words appear in the word lists, so we never see any of them individually given an explicit label. So it's reasonable to conclude that TKD considers all curse words as exclamations. However, this is clearly inaccurate, as the epithets appear to be nouns. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
I understand the arguments brought fourth, for the use of {petaQmey} instead of {petaQpu'} in the paq'batlh stanza in question. What I'd like to ask though is this: That stanza aside, could someone instead of {petaQmey} say {petaQpu'} ? Or is the {pe'taQ} to be necessarily understood, as something/someone lacking the brain power of using language ? ~ bkkhbk
Am 28.06.2019 um 16:11 schrieb mayqel qunen'oS:
That stanza aside, could someone instead of {petaQmey} say {petaQpu'} ?
I think that {petaQpu'} still is the grammatically correct version to be preferred, while {petaQmey} violates the rule to emphasize the disrespect. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Cursing
Dear Friends of the Klingon language, after being on this list for over 22 years, I finally begin to understand why several people have completed the step I am facing now. I have enjoyed many interesting discussions, some more, some less. And I was very patient if somebody insisted to disagree with me and sometimes even enjoyed the discussions. But if somebody aims at me with the F-word -- even though it's hidden in a fake joke -- I think it's not a place I want to be in. So - you all know where you can find me, but not here anymore. To all my friends, I say: Goodbye. To the other one I say: FUCK YOU. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de
tlhIngan Hol ghojmoHwI'ma' mejmoH 'Iv? :-( jISaQ :-( :-( :-( -QISta' On Mon, Jul 8, 2019, 14:55 Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Dear Friends of the Klingon language,
after being on this list for over 22 years, I finally begin to understand why several people have completed the step I am facing now.
I have enjoyed many interesting discussions, some more, some less. And I was very patient if somebody insisted to disagree with me and sometimes even enjoyed the discussions. But if somebody aims at me with the F-word -- even though it's hidden in a fake joke -- I think it's not a place I want to be in. So - you all know where you can find me, but not here anymore.
To all my friends, I say: Goodbye.
To the other one I say: FUCK YOU.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 7/8/2019 4:55 PM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
But if somebody aims at me with the F-word -- even though it's hidden in a fake joke -- I think it's not a place I want to be in.
chotIch 'e' Dajechqang, 'ach qatIch 'e' vIjechchugh je, ghu' DacherghlaHbe'. wejpuH! batlhHa' bIHIvpu' SoH'e'; jInoDpu' neH. DatIchlu' 'e' DacherghlaHbe'chugh, tIchwI' wa'DIch yImojQo'. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
wa'vaD mu'qaDmey bach latlh; 'e' vItlhojbe', wa'Hu', QIn tlheghvetlh vIlaDtaHvIS. qIDmey ghItlh nuvpu' 'e' vIHar.. 'ach, lieven, naDev Damej vIneHbe'. Dol maH, 'ej mejDI' vay', tlhIngan Hol lo'laH vay''e' weS Dolvam. 'ej puSqu' nuvpu'vam 'e' Sov qeylIS. I didn't realize people were actually exchanging curses, while I was reading that thread yesterday. But I wouldn't want you lieven to leave. We're a whole, and this whole suffers loss, when one of us leaves. And qeylIS knows, there aren't many of us, who can *really* use klingon. ~ khkhkh
If there were an Olympic medal for leaving this list, I’d hold the gold, so it would be hypocritical of me to suggest you should not leave. Meanwhile, my hope is you cool your jets and return any time. You do great work here. It’s hard to dedicate so much time and attention to something and then be thick-skinned and casual about perceived insults, and text does such a lousy job of conveying emotion, it is easy for an accidental insult, which escalates into real ones, and then, toxic harm between people otherwise capable of productive collaboration the community thrives on. Come back when you can. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Jul 9, 2019, at 2:14 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
wa'vaD mu'qaDmey bach latlh; 'e' vItlhojbe', wa'Hu', QIn tlheghvetlh vIlaDtaHvIS. qIDmey ghItlh nuvpu' 'e' vIHar..
'ach, lieven, naDev Damej vIneHbe'. Dol maH, 'ej mejDI' vay', tlhIngan Hol lo'laH vay''e' weS Dolvam.
'ej puSqu' nuvpu'vam 'e' Sov qeylIS.
I didn't realize people were actually exchanging curses, while I was reading that thread yesterday.
But I wouldn't want you lieven to leave. We're a whole, and this whole suffers loss, when one of us leaves.
And qeylIS knows, there aren't many of us, who can *really* use klingon.
~ khkhkh _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 6/28/2019 8:02 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
Can I place on an epithet, noun suffixes ?
For example:
{vIghro'wIj tIQ tIch petaQvam} this petaQ insulted my ancient cat
Is this correct ?
Yes. /paq'batlh/ has *petaQ'e', petaQvam, petaQmey,* and *petaQ'a'.* And yes, the *petaQmey* is used for beings capable of using language. They're not scattered all about in the passage, so it's being used insultingly. But in your sentence, the action of the insult is completed, and your English sentence is conveying it that way. Therefore this should be *vIghro'wIj tIQ tIchpu' petaQvam*/This p'takh insulted my ancient cat./ -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
participants (7)
-
Christa Hansberry -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
nIqolay Q -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel -
Will Martin