I just realized something.. In english you say "I didn't do anything" In greek we say "I didn't do nothing" In english you say "I don't know anything" In greek we say "I don't know nothing" In english you say "I don't go anywhere" In greek we say "I don't go nowhere" I'm certain that you, being native english speakers, find the above greek phrases strange/wrong. On the other hand, I, being greek, find the english phrases strange/wrong. maj. The question is, why should I -in klingon-, write {vay' vIqaSmoHbe'} instead of {pagh vIqaSmoHbe'} ? Why should I write {vay' vISovbe'} instead of {pagh vISovbe'} ? Why {vogh vIjaHbe'} instead of {pagh Daq vIjaHbe'} ? Why should I follow the english way of expressing the above, instead of the greek ? ~ nI'ghma
On 1/1/2018 7:46 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
I just realized something..
In english you say "I didn't do anything" In greek we say "I didn't do nothing" In english you say "I don't know anything" In greek we say "I don't know nothing" In english you say "I don't go anywhere" In greek we say "I don't go nowhere"
I'm certain that you, being native english speakers, find the above greek phrases strange/wrong.
On the other hand, I, being greek, find the english phrases strange/wrong.
maj.
The question is, why should I -in klingon-, write {vay' vIqaSmoHbe'} instead of {pagh vIqaSmoHbe'} ? Why should I write {vay' vISovbe'} instead of {pagh vISovbe'} ? Why {vogh vIjaHbe'} instead of {pagh Daq vIjaHbe'} ?
Why should I follow the english way of expressing the above, instead of the greek ?
Apparently I can no longer reply to the list on my phone. Summary: see this about double negatives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_negative Klingon works like English: double negatives cancel each other out into a positive. *wej Heghchugh vay', SuvtaH SuvwI'*/ A warrior fights to the death./ (TKW) (Not *wej Heghchugh pagh...*) *batlh Heghlu'chugh noDnISbe' vay' */An honorable death requires to vengeance./ (TKW) (Not ...*noDnIS pagh.*) *naDev vay' vISovbe' */I don't know anybody here/ (CK) (Not *naDev pagh vISovbe'*.) *qeylIS'e' lIjlaHbe'bogh vay' */Kahless the Unforgettable/ (SkyBox S8) (Not *qeylIj'e' **lIjlaHbe'bogh pagh*.) And probably more. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Why should I follow the english way of expressing the above
When there's little or no canon to go by, I'm right there with you, and think we should be careful about doing things the English way, which we may often to subconsciously because it's a language we all share and the one that most Klingon language materials are written in. I often test my preconceptions by expressing something in both Swedish and English, and seeing if the sentences break down the same way. If they do, that seems to me to be a good indicator that treating one way more correct than the other is highly arbitrary. If they do ... well, then there's *still* cause to be suspicious, because Klingon and English come from two different planets whereas Swedish and English are basically just regional dialects of Old Norse that borrowed different sets of words from French. If things break down similarly in several more distantly related languages, such as English, Greek, Chinese, Ojibwe, Nahuatl, Kikongo and Warlpiri, that might indicate that it's just a very reasonable way of doing things ... but given that language evolution is a chaotic process, we still can't say for sure without evidence. However, in this case I would say you should because there is plenty of precedent for the single-negation way in Klingom, but none that I can think of for double negation. We don't have explicit evidence suggesting that it's *wrong* (that I can think of), but if it isn't, then it is conspicuous by its absence. //loghaD ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, January 1, 2018 1:46:02 PM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: [tlhIngan Hol] Two negations I just realized something.. In english you say "I didn't do anything" In greek we say "I didn't do nothing" In english you say "I don't know anything" In greek we say "I don't know nothing" In english you say "I don't go anywhere" In greek we say "I don't go nowhere" I'm certain that you, being native english speakers, find the above greek phrases strange/wrong. On the other hand, I, being greek, find the english phrases strange/wrong. maj. The question is, why should I -in klingon-, write {vay' vIqaSmoHbe'} instead of {pagh vIqaSmoHbe'} ? Why should I write {vay' vISovbe'} instead of {pagh vISovbe'} ? Why {vogh vIjaHbe'} instead of {pagh Daq vIjaHbe'} ? Why should I follow the english way of expressing the above, instead of the greek ? ~ nI'ghma
DIvI' Hol wIlo'taHvIS rut neH teH 'oH. {I didn't do nothing} jatlh 'op nuv. 'ach DIvI' Hol Segh Daghojbogh Dalo'taHvIS, teH 'oH. - SapIr On Mon, Jan 01, 2018 at 02:46:02PM +0200, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
I just realized something..
In english you say "I didn't do anything" In greek we say "I didn't do nothing" In english you say "I don't know anything" In greek we say "I don't know nothing" In english you say "I don't go anywhere" In greek we say "I don't go nowhere"
I'm certain that you, being native english speakers, find the above greek phrases strange/wrong.
On the other hand, I, being greek, find the english phrases strange/wrong.
maj.
The question is, why should I -in klingon-, write {vay' vIqaSmoHbe'} instead of {pagh vIqaSmoHbe'} ? Why should I write {vay' vISovbe'} instead of {pagh vISovbe'} ? Why {vogh vIjaHbe'} instead of {pagh Daq vIjaHbe'} ?
Why should I follow the english way of expressing the above, instead of the greek ?
~ nI'ghma
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
True. But the english "I didn't do nothing", isn't used in formal speech. As I understand it, it is slang/informal. Anyway, since klingon doesn't use "two negatives", I have no problem writing klingon the english way. Although I do wonder.. Is klingon's not utilization of "two negatives" a conscious choice, or is it an unconscious carry-over from english ? But I guess, we'll never know. le'bogh DIS chu' botIvjaj.. ~ nI'ghma On Jan 1, 2018 21:00, "kechpaja" <kechpaja@comcast.net> wrote:
DIvI' Hol wIlo'taHvIS rut neH teH 'oH. {I didn't do nothing} jatlh 'op nuv. 'ach DIvI' Hol Segh Daghojbogh Dalo'taHvIS, teH 'oH.
- SapIr
On Mon, Jan 01, 2018 at 02:46:02PM +0200, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
I just realized something..
In english you say "I didn't do anything" In greek we say "I didn't do nothing" In english you say "I don't know anything" In greek we say "I don't know nothing" In english you say "I don't go anywhere" In greek we say "I don't go nowhere"
I'm certain that you, being native english speakers, find the above greek phrases strange/wrong.
On the other hand, I, being greek, find the english phrases strange/wrong.
maj.
The question is, why should I -in klingon-, write {vay' vIqaSmoHbe'} instead of {pagh vIqaSmoHbe'} ? Why should I write {vay' vISovbe'} instead of {pagh vISovbe'} ? Why {vogh vIjaHbe'} instead of {pagh Daq vIjaHbe'} ?
Why should I follow the english way of expressing the above, instead of the greek ?
~ nI'ghma
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 01.01.2018 um 20:33 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
True. But the english "I didn't do nothing", isn't used in formal speech. As I understand it, it is slang/informal.
When I learned English in school, they explained that somehow "nothing" can be split up into "not + anything". You can say "I see nothing" and "I do not see anything". Basically, "I don't see nothing" is just wrong. But it's true that some speakers are using this intentionally incorrect for emphasis. From a linguistic point of view, it is a double negation which leads to a positive result: A: I see nothing. B: I don't see nothing, I see a lot. A: pagh vIlegh. B: pagh vIleghbe'. Hoch vIlegh.
Is klingon's not utilization of "two negatives" a conscious choice, or is it an unconscious carry-over from english ?
Many grammatical issues in Klingon reveal its creator's English native language. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.com http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
I'm not sure. However, I do think it's worth noting that in Klingon, you usually don't negate whole words, but rather morphemes. A word may have both negated and non-negated components, so having a sort of "negative mood" that the rest of the sentence must conform to wouldn't make much sense. Consider four soldiers trying to decide who should take the night watch and who should sleep: 1. DaHjaj ram jIQonglaH. = "I'll be able to sleep tonight." 2. DaHjaj ram jIQonglaHbe'. = "I won't be able to sleep tonight." 3. DaHjaj ram jIQongbe'laH. = "I'll be able to not-sleep tonight." (or perhaps "I can stay awake tonight.") 4. DaHjaj ram jIQongbe'laHbe'. = "I won't be able to not-sleep tonight." (or perhaps "I won't be able to stay awake tonight.") Is #4 "more negative" than #2 and #3 because it has two negations, or do the negations cancel out and make it "less negative"? Such considerations would make double negations in Klingon quite messy. //loghaD ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, January 1, 2018 8:33:49 PM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Two negations True. But the english "I didn't do nothing", isn't used in formal speech. As I understand it, it is slang/informal. Anyway, since klingon doesn't use "two negatives", I have no problem writing klingon the english way. Although I do wonder.. Is klingon's not utilization of "two negatives" a conscious choice, or is it an unconscious carry-over from english ? But I guess, we'll never know. le'bogh DIS chu' botIvjaj.. ~ nI'ghma On Jan 1, 2018 21:00, "kechpaja" <kechpaja@comcast.net<mailto:kechpaja@comcast.net>> wrote: DIvI' Hol wIlo'taHvIS rut neH teH 'oH. {I didn't do nothing} jatlh 'op nuv. 'ach DIvI' Hol Segh Daghojbogh Dalo'taHvIS, teH 'oH. - SapIr On Mon, Jan 01, 2018 at 02:46:02PM +0200, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
I just realized something..
In english you say "I didn't do anything" In greek we say "I didn't do nothing" In english you say "I don't know anything" In greek we say "I don't know nothing" In english you say "I don't go anywhere" In greek we say "I don't go nowhere"
I'm certain that you, being native english speakers, find the above greek phrases strange/wrong.
On the other hand, I, being greek, find the english phrases strange/wrong.
maj.
The question is, why should I -in klingon-, write {vay' vIqaSmoHbe'} instead of {pagh vIqaSmoHbe'} ? Why should I write {vay' vISovbe'} instead of {pagh vISovbe'} ? Why {vogh vIjaHbe'} instead of {pagh Daq vIjaHbe'} ?
Why should I follow the english way of expressing the above, instead of the greek ?
~ nI'ghma
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org<mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org<mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 1 January 2018 at 13:46, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I just realized something..
In english you say "I didn't do anything" In greek we say "I didn't do nothing" In english you say "I don't know anything" In greek we say "I don't know nothing" In english you say "I don't go anywhere" In greek we say "I don't go nowhere"
I'm not sure whether that's true. Compare: Μήπως ξέρει κανείς εδώ αγγλικά; "Does anyone here know English?" Όχι, κανείς εδώ δεν ξέρει αγγλικά. "No, nobody (= not anyone) here knows English." Words such as κανείς only receive their meaning "nobody" in a negative context, rather similar to how "anyone, anything" etc. only turn into "nobody, nothing" in a negative context. So I think that translating κανείς δεν ξέρει into "nobody doesn't know" is misleading. But the main question was about Klingon; sorry for the digression. Ph.
Philip Newton:
Όχι, κανείς εδώ δεν ξέρει αγγλικά. "No, nobody (= not anyone) here knows English." So I think that translating κανείς δεν ξέρει into "nobody doesn't know" is misleading.
I'm afraid, you forgot the "δεν" in your translation of the greek phrase. In the above sentence "κανεις" means "κανενας", which in turn means "nobody". The exact translation of "κανεις εδω δεν ξερει αγγλικα" is: κανεις: nobody εδω: here δεν: doesn't ξερει: know αγγλικα: english So, the exact translation of the greek phrase goes "nobody here doesn't know english". If we said to an american "nobody here doesn't know english" he would understand "everybody here knows english". On the other hand, if we said the greek phrase to a greek he would understand "noone here knows english". So, exactly the same phrase, has the opposite meaning in these two different languages, with the problem being, how each one translates the co-existense of "nobody" with "doesn't". Now, if you used the "κανεις" in a question as: "Υπαρχει κανεις εδω που δεν ξερει αγγλικα ?" Then "κανεις" wouldn't mean "nobody", and it would mean "someone". So, the meaning would be "Is here someone who doesn't know english ?" I realize that this must be confusing, and perhaps because of this reason people say "it all seems greek to me". The question would be of course, if a klingon heard {naDev, DI'vI' Hol jatlhbe' pagh} what he would understand. If you think in english you would understand "everyone here speaks english", and if you thought in greek you would understand "noone here speaks english". But, since there are no real klingons, and the language always uses english for its translations, we will choose to follow the english way, so we will all be happy. ~ nI'ghma On Jan 7, 2018 10:33, "Philip Newton" <philip.newton@gmail.com> wrote:
On 1 January 2018 at 13:46, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I just realized something..
In english you say "I didn't do anything" In greek we say "I didn't do nothing" In english you say "I don't know anything" In greek we say "I don't know nothing" In english you say "I don't go anywhere" In greek we say "I don't go nowhere"
I'm not sure whether that's true.
Compare:
Μήπως ξέρει κανείς εδώ αγγλικά; "Does anyone here know English?" Όχι, κανείς εδώ δεν ξέρει αγγλικά. "No, nobody (= not anyone) here knows English."
Words such as κανείς only receive their meaning "nobody" in a negative context, rather similar to how "anyone, anything" etc. only turn into "nobody, nothing" in a negative context.
So I think that translating κανείς δεν ξέρει into "nobody doesn't know" is misleading.
But the main question was about Klingon; sorry for the digression.
Ph. _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Jan 7, 2018 13:06, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote: If we said to an american "nobody here doesn't know english" he would understand "everybody here knows english". ghaytanHa'. ghaytan jatlhHa' jatlhwI' 'e' noH 'ej naDev DIvI' Hol jatlh pagh 'e' yaj. "There is nobody here who doesn't know English" jatlhchugh, lugh net noH 'ej naDev DIvI' Hol jatlh Hoch net yaj. -- De'vID
participants (7)
-
De'vID -
Felix Malmenbeck -
kechpaja -
Lieven -
mayqel qunenoS -
Philip Newton -
SuStel