Am 09.10.2020 um 18:10 schrieb Steven Boozer:

Other U.S. geographical names include: [...] baStan Boston (source?)

Source: translation work for "In The Year 2889". http://klingon.wiki/En/InTheYear2889

Any others?

I have started a list at the Wiki: klingon.wiki/En/USA (but it's not complete, missing some of those you have posted) -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:45 AM Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:

Thanks for the source. I was perusing the qep'a' 2020 new words list over the weekend and discovered another one {DItroy'} Detroit.

Interesting example of using a glottal stop to transliterate a "t" in a syllable that otherwise already ends in a consonant. I know *'entepray'* does that too, although "z" is less similar to a glottal stop than a "t" is. I wonder how many other examples there are of this.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 2:23 PM SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:

On 10/12/2020 2:04 PM, nIqolay Q wrote:

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:45 AM Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:

...

Thanks for the source. I was perusing the qep'a' 2020 new words list over the weekend and discovered another one {DItroy'} Detroit.

Interesting example of using a glottal stop to transliterate a "t" in a syllable that otherwise already ends in a consonant.

The final *t* in *Detroit* is not aspirated the way a Klingon *t* always is. A glottal stop is actually closer in sound to the unaspirated *t.*

Aspiration doesn't seem to play much of a role in transliterations. In the case of "Detroit", you can't just transliterate the final syllable as *-oyt*, because -*oyt* isn't an allowed syllable ending in Klingon phonotactics. Sometimes, Okrand deals with this (consonant after diphthong) by adding another syllable: "Deutsch" (in "Deutschland") -> **Doych* -> *DoyIch*. But in this case, since *'* is similar to "t", and *-oy'* is an allowed Klingon syllable ending, you can just do that.

Any time you transliterate between languages, you have to follow the pronunciation rules of the target language. Since certain consonant or vowel combinations are illegal in one language and common in another, transliteration often involves either dropping something or adding something. You have to decide which sounds closer to the original: {DItroy’} or {DItroyte’}, since the {y} mimics one of the “i” sounds in English, but counts as a consonant in the rules of Klingon phonetics for legal syllables, and Klingon doesn’t allow two vowels to be without an intervening consonant. I guess he might have also considered {DItro’It}, though the {I} is like the eye in “his” while the {y} is like the “e” in “creek”, which is closer to the eye in "Detroit”. So, I guess he also might have considered {DItroyIt} or {DItroyet}. Still, given all the options, {DItroy’} sounds closer to “Detroit” than any other legal Klingon pronunciation because {Detroy’} is a two syllable word and all the others are three syllables, and the only way to make “Detroit” three syllables is to HEAVILY aspirate after the “t”, which SuStel was quite proper to point out, doesn’t sound right, unless you are drunk and trying really hard to not slur. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.

On Oct 12, 2020, at 4:26 PM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:

When I saw {DItroy’} I thought Okrand was attempting to render the French pronunciation – sort of! - or perhaps an odd mix of French and English. Fort Pontchartrain du Détroit <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Pontchartrain_du_D%C3%A9troit>was originally a French fort founded in 1701.

Or not wanting to add an extra vowel he could also have simply dropped the final consonant, such as {'entepray'} Enterprise, {lIHtentay’} Liechtenstein and {‘oSteray’} Österreich. He routinely does this with Terran names ending in –land: {DoyIchlan} Deutschland, {ne'Derlan} Netherlands, {'Inglan} England, {SIqotlan <http://www.klingonwiki.net/bin/view/Word/SIkotlan>} Scotland, {nu'SIylan} New Zealand and {‘ISlan} Iceland.

__ Voragh _________________________________________________________________ From: nIqolay Q Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 2:23 PM SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote: On 10/12/2020 2:04 PM, nIqolay Q wrote: On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:45 AM Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu <mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu>> wrote: Thanks for the source. I was perusing the qep'a' 2020 new words list over the weekend and discovered another one {DItroy'} Detroit.

Interesting example of using a glottal stop to transliterate a "t" in a syllable that otherwise already ends in a consonant. The final t in Detroit is not aspirated the way a Klingon t always is. A glottal stop is actually closer in sound to the unaspirated t.

Aspiration doesn't seem to play much of a role in transliterations. In the case of "Detroit", you can't just transliterate the final syllable as -oyt, because -oyt isn't an allowed syllable ending in Klingon phonotactics. Sometimes, Okrand deals with this (consonant after diphthong) by adding another syllable: "Deutsch" (in "Deutschland") -> *Doych -> DoyIch. But in this case, since ' is similar to "t", and -oy' is an allowed Klingon syllable ending, you can just do that. _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org <mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org <http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org>

Any other examples where the final /t/ has been “realized as a glottal stop” or just dropped? I quickly skimmed my notes but couldn’t find one. Voragh _________________________________________________________________________ From: Brent Kesler [bI'reng] Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 9:03 AM I don't know if this influenced MO, but in the Midwestern accent, final /t/ is often realized as a glottal stop. So {DItroy'} makes sense to me. On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 4:26 PM Voragh <sboozer@uchicago.edu<mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu>> wrote: When I saw {DItroy’} I thought Okrand was attempting to render the French pronunciation – sort of! - or perhaps an odd mix of French and English. Fort Pontchartrain du Détroit<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Pontchartrain_du_D**Atroit__;w6k!!BpyFHLRN4TMTrA!uvEu5DXhJHWaOw6Pj8N3-s5pyUzPBSCBKgD1axuqeZtqbz3845VHxs_36anA6HbXTPg$> was originally a French fort founded in 1701. Or not wanting to add an extra vowel he could also have simply dropped the final consonant, such as {'entepray'} Enterprise, {lIHtentay’} Liechtenstein and {‘oSteray’} Österreich. He routinely does this with Terran names ending in –land: {DoyIchlan} Deutschland, {ne'Derlan} Netherlands, {'Inglan} England, {SIqotlan} Scotland, {nu'SIylan} New Zealand and {‘ISlan} Iceland. _________________________________________________________________ From: nIqolay Q Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 2:23 PM SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name<mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote: On 10/12/2020 2:04 PM, nIqolay Q wrote: On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:45 AM Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu<mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu>> wrote: Thanks for the source. I was perusing the qep'a' 2020 new words list over the weekend and discovered another one {DItroy'} Detroit. Interesting example of using a glottal stop to transliterate a "t" in a syllable that otherwise already ends in a consonant. The final t in Detroit is not aspirated the way a Klingon t always is. A glottal stop is actually closer in sound to the unaspirated t. Aspiration doesn't seem to play much of a role in transliterations. In the case of "Detroit", you can't just transliterate the final syllable as -oyt, because -oyt isn't an allowed syllable ending in Klingon phonotactics. Sometimes, Okrand deals with this (consonant after diphthong) by adding another syllable: "Deutsch" (in "Deutschland") -> *Doych -> DoyIch. But in this case, since ' is similar to "t", and -oy' is an allowed Klingon syllable ending, you can just do that.