For your interest: The translation of the Little Prince into Klingon took me 14 years. That was not because it was difficult, but just because the Klingon language lacked so many words. Over the years, the new words filled in the gaps of the translation, until there was a point that it just needed a few more words to complete it. Marc Okrand was so kind to talk to Maltz who was willing to reveal some new words. Note that there are a few that are not really new words, just Klingon spellings of Teran words. ------------------- From "ta'puq mach - The Little Prince (klingon translation) ", p. 153-156 bewbeb – Baobab (a Terran tree) This is a very specific tree, so this Klingon word is borrowed from English. Maltz never heard of the thing and thought it was pretty weird-looking. Daqrab – well. It's normally a water well, but it could be an oil well, assuming Klingons are aware of drilling for oil. If clarity is needed, one can say bIQ Daqrab. "Source" is not part of the definition. A Daqrab is constructed and/or dug. DISjaj – anniversary. Maltz said there is a way (actually, several ways) to refer to an "anniversary," which he characterized as a specific day on which one recognizes or remembers an event that occurred a set amount of time ago on that same date. The "set amount of time" could be a year (what most people think of when they think of "anniversary"), but it could be another unit of time: a month or a week. DISjaj: anniversary measured in years jarjaj: anniversary measured in months (the three-month anniversary of starting a new job, say) Hoghjaj: anniversary measured in weeks (the two-week anniversary of the day someone quit smoking, perhaps) A one-year anniversary would be DISjaj wa' or DISjaj wa'DIch (Maltz had no preference). And so on. Maltz says that he's heard expressions like tupjaj, which is presumably an anniversary measured in minutes – the 10-minute "anniversary" of someone not talking, maybe. He said this is a form of wordplay, not a "real" word, but people do say things like this. Do'ol – sand. What you find in the desert or on a beach. Not dirt. DI'raq – sheep. There's a fluffy, woolly, shaggy Klingon animal called a DI'raq, similar to a sheep. To distinguish, one can say tera' DI'raq the first time it comes up, but probably shorten it to just DI'raq after that. A male sheep, that is, a ram, is called DI'raq loD. It's two words. Kin terms (like puqloD and lorloD) are set terms, regular vocabulary items. For animals, Klingon doesn't have special words for male vs. female. That is, English has ram (male), ewe (female), sheep (both/either), but Klingon has only an equivalent for sheep – no separate word for ram or ewe. If it's necessary to specify sex/gender, it's done using the noun-noun construction. Hovtej – astronomer / HovQeD – astronomy Hov tut – telescope. Maltz says the most common way to say telescope is Hov tut. He thought that was sort of an everyday or layman's term – maybe even slang – and that astronomers called it something else... but he didn't remember what that was. moQbID – dome. This word is literally "sphere half" and is used in the story for a bell used to cover something. pu' – horn. The horn of an animal, same word as the spike on a boot (or a spike in general). When clarity is called for, say Ha'DIbaH pu' or DI'raq loD pu'. The plural of pu' is either pu'mey or pu'Du', depending on the specific meaning of pu'. qargh – be bulky, thick. qeSHoS – fox. A Klingon animal that's kind of dog-like. They eat vegetation and also small animals and birds. Klingons, of course, might eat them, but mostly consider them pests. quntej – historian / qunQeD – history science ro'Sa' – rose (a Terran flower). Since there's no Klingon equivalent for a rose, and this word is a specific name, this variation of the Federation Standard word is used. SaHa'ra' – Sahara (Earth desert). In Arabic, the sahara desert is called aṣ-ṣaḥrāʼ al-kubrá, meaning "the Great Desert." If the Klingon version came from Arabic, it would be something along those lines. But Maltz says Klingons got the name from Federation Standard, which is why it is pronounced SaHa'ra'. Su'wan ghew – butterfly. This is not a literal translation for such an animal, but Maltz suggested this word, because he knows it for a flying insect with largish wings. tom – tilt. Can be used for a head movement. [This verb is intranstitive, so if you want to tilt something, say tommoH] tlhegh jIrmoHwI' – windlass (literally: rope twister/rotator) yItlhHa' – lenient, indulgent. This is formed from yItlh be strict, severe, firm, stern, authoritarian. yuQtej – geographer. yuQQeD – geography. The meaning of yuQ must have changed over the years. Now it means planet, but maybe it originally meant something else, something along the lines of place/location where we live. 'ughDuq ghargh – caterpillar. Maltz said this is a little squirmy thing that somehow turns into a Su'wan ghew. The 'ughDuq ghargh is not used to prepare qagh, by the way. ---------------- -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/TheLittlePrince
On 8/31/2018 10:30 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
From "ta'puq mach - The Little Prince (klingon translation) ", p. 153-156
Is *ta'puq* a new word as well, or one of your own constructions?
A male sheep, that is, a ram, is called DI'raq loD. It's two words. Kin terms (like puqloD and lorloD) are set terms, regular vocabulary items.
And there we go. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 31.08.2018 um 16:39 schrieb SuStel:
On 8/31/2018 10:30 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
From "ta'puq mach - The Little Prince (klingon translation) ", p. 153-156
Is *ta'puq* a new word as well, or one of your own constructions?
Not canon, but not my own construction either: It first appeared in Hamlet. I thought about this for a very long time. In the beginning, I worked with {ta'Hom mach} for a long time, and it almost made it into the final version. But I thought that -Hom is diminutive, making this person a lesser person somehow. When Okrand asked Maltz for the Klingon word of it, he asked back what kind of prince this is after all? He also did not like to confirm {ta'puq}, which had been used in Hamlet. So I decided to take {ta'puq} just for that reason that it had been used in Hamlet (so klingonists would recognize it as a used word), and also because it just does not matter for the story. MO wrote: "Maltz agreed that whatever it is, it's the word for this guy in the story and does not establish how it fits in with (native) Klingon words for rulers or government officials or the like." -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/TheLittlePrince
I don't suppose during your discussion with Okrand you uncovered the difference between {ta'} and {voDleH}? Is it historical? regional? military vs. political? upper vs. lower class? Is one derived from an proper name (e.g. Caesar > Kaiser & tsar'/czar)? inherited vs. usurped (or someone founding a new dynasty)? Thanks for taking the time to post all the new words. As always it's much appreciated! -- Voragh -----Original Message----- From: Lieven L. Litaer Am 31.08.2018 um 16:39 schrieb SuStel:
Is *ta'puq* a new word as well, or one of your own constructions?
Not canon, but not my own construction either: It first appeared in Hamlet. I thought about this for a very long time. In the beginning, I worked with {ta'Hom mach} for a long time, and it almost made it into the final version. But I thought that -Hom is diminutive, making this person a lesser person somehow. When Okrand asked Maltz for the Klingon word of it, he asked back what kind of prince this is after all? He also did not like to confirm {ta'puq}, which had been used in Hamlet. So I decided to take {ta'puq} just for that reason that it had been used in Hamlet (so klingonists would recognize it as a used word), and also because it just does not matter for the story. MO wrote: "Maltz agreed that whatever it is, it's the word for this guy in the story and does not establish how it fits in with (native) Klingon words for rulers or government officials or the like." -- Lieven L. Litaer
Am 31.08.2018 um 19:57 schrieb Steven Boozer:
I don't suppose during your discussion with Okrand you uncovered the difference between {ta'} and {voDleH}?
No, sorry. We did not talk about this. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/MarcOkrand
From: nIqolay Q
On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 10:30 AM, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de<mailto:levinius@gmx.de>> wrote: ro'Sa' – rose (a Terran flower). Since there's no Klingon equivalent for a rose, and this word is a specific name, this variation of the Federation Standard word is used.
'a QaQ'a' pIwDaj?
“That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.” (SeQpIr) -- Voragh
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 at 16:30, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Daqrab – well. It's normally a water well, but it could be an oil well, assuming Klingons are aware of drilling for oil. If clarity is needed, one can say bIQ Daqrab. "Source" is not part of the definition. A Daqrab is constructed and/or dug.
What do you mean "source" is not part of the definition? (Is this a comment about the German word "Quelle"?)
DISjaj – anniversary. Maltz said there is a way (actually, several ways) to refer to an "anniversary," which he characterized as a specific day on which one recognizes or remembers an event that occurred a set amount of time ago on that same date. The "set amount of time" could be a year (what most people think of when they think of "anniversary"), but it could be another unit of time: a month or a week.
DISjaj: anniversary measured in years
jarjaj: anniversary measured in months (the three-month anniversary of starting a new job, say)
Hoghjaj: anniversary measured in weeks (the two-week anniversary of the day someone quit smoking, perhaps)
Interestingly, this is sort of like how it works in Chinese. The word 週 originally meant "cycle", but now means "week". However, it's still used with its "cycle" meaning in the compound 週年 (年 is "year"). That is, the word for "anniversary" is composed from the characters for "week (cycle)" and "year". I'm having trouble translating {Hoghjaj} and {jarjaj} now because 週月 and 週週 don't make much sense, and 週年 has the word "year" in it (much more obviously than "anniversary" contains "year", i.e, "annus" to an English-speaker). (I was under the impression that there were several Klingon speakers who know Chinese, but I didn't get any offers to help with Chinese translations either on this mailing list or Facebook.) DI'raq – sheep. There's a fluffy, woolly, shaggy Klingon animal called a
DI'raq, similar to a sheep. To distinguish, one can say tera' DI'raq the first time it comes up, but probably shorten it to just DI'raq after that. A male sheep, that is, a ram, is called DI'raq loD. It's two words. Kin terms (like puqloD and lorloD) are set terms, regular vocabulary items. For animals, Klingon doesn't have special words for male vs. female. That is, English has ram (male), ewe (female), sheep (both/either), but Klingon has only an equivalent for sheep – no separate word for ram or ewe. If it's necessary to specify sex/gender, it's done using the noun-noun construction.
qItbe'! SaHa'ra' – Sahara (Earth desert). In Arabic, the sahara desert is called
aṣ-ṣaḥrāʼ al-kubrá, meaning "the Great Desert." If the Klingon version came from Arabic, it would be something along those lines. But Maltz says Klingons got the name from Federation Standard, which is why it is pronounced SaHa'ra'.
Would a Klingon say {SaHa'ra'} or {SaHa'ra' Deb}? That is, is the "desert" idea implicit in the name? -- De'vID
ghItlhpu' De'vID, jatlh:
(I was under the impression that there were several Klingon speakers who
know Chinese, but I didn't get any offers to help with Chinese translations
either on this mailing list or Facebook.)
The only one I know with real proficiency is of course 'ISqu', but she's not really active on the mailing list any more and doesn't have a Facebook account. QeS 'utlh
Am 01.09.2018 um 07:42 schrieb De'vID:
What do you mean "source" is not part of the definition? (Is this a comment about the German word "Quelle"?)
If you walk through the forest, and there's water coming out of the rocks, that is NOT a Daqrab. His comment was to mark the difference, showing that a {Daqrab} is not a natural thing.
I'm having trouble translating {Hoghjaj} and {jarjaj} now
I also had problems translating that to German as well. The German word for "anniversary" is "Jahrestag" already (year-day), so the week-anniversary would be "week-year-day" which makes no sense at all.
that. A male sheep, that is, a ram, is called DI'raq loD. It's two words. Kin terms (like puqloD and lorloD) are set terms, regular qItbe'!
There's again the situation where Okrand made a small mistake. So here we must just say that language is natural, it's not math :-) (Or Maltz needs to correct one of both.)
SaHa'ra' – Sahara (Earth desert). In Arabic, the sahara desert is
Would a Klingon say {SaHa'ra'} or {SaHa'ra' Deb}? That is, is the "desert" idea implicit in the name?
Good question. But I think it's included. Just as in Earth languages: Whe you speak about "the Sahara", poeple know it's the desert. And you can also say "the sahara desert" (can't you?). Adding {Deb} does not sound wrong, but it's a bit like {tera' yuQ} "planet Earth". -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Maltz
Would a Klingon say {SaHa'ra'} or {SaHa'ra' Deb}? That is, is the "desert" idea implicit in the name?
Well, Terran country names seem to stand on their own, and based on the gloss I would expect the same here, but I suspect that it may depend on the speaker's familiarity with the place, or the listener's anticipated familiarity. When speaking to a Terran Klingon, «SaHa'ra'» would probably suffice, but when speaking to an audience of Klingons who haven't taken Earth studies 101, you may need to specify «tera' yuQ 'avrI'qa' yuwey Sa'Hara' Deb». //loghaD ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2018 7:42:07 AM To: tlhIngan-Hol Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Words from The Little Prince On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 at 16:30, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de<mailto:levinius@gmx.de>> wrote: Daqrab - well. It's normally a water well, but it could be an oil well, assuming Klingons are aware of drilling for oil. If clarity is needed, one can say bIQ Daqrab. "Source" is not part of the definition. A Daqrab is constructed and/or dug. What do you mean "source" is not part of the definition? (Is this a comment about the German word "Quelle"?) DISjaj - anniversary. Maltz said there is a way (actually, several ways) to refer to an "anniversary," which he characterized as a specific day on which one recognizes or remembers an event that occurred a set amount of time ago on that same date. The "set amount of time" could be a year (what most people think of when they think of "anniversary"), but it could be another unit of time: a month or a week. DISjaj: anniversary measured in years jarjaj: anniversary measured in months (the three-month anniversary of starting a new job, say) Hoghjaj: anniversary measured in weeks (the two-week anniversary of the day someone quit smoking, perhaps) Interestingly, this is sort of like how it works in Chinese. The word ? originally meant "cycle", but now means "week". However, it's still used with its "cycle" meaning in the compound ?? (? is "year"). That is, the word for "anniversary" is composed from the characters for "week (cycle)" and "year". I'm having trouble translating {Hoghjaj} and {jarjaj} now because ?? and ?? don't make much sense, and ?? has the word "year" in it (much more obviously than "anniversary" contains "year", i.e, "annus" to an English-speaker). (I was under the impression that there were several Klingon speakers who know Chinese, but I didn't get any offers to help with Chinese translations either on this mailing list or Facebook.) DI'raq - sheep. There's a fluffy, woolly, shaggy Klingon animal called a DI'raq, similar to a sheep. To distinguish, one can say tera' DI'raq the first time it comes up, but probably shorten it to just DI'raq after that. A male sheep, that is, a ram, is called DI'raq loD. It's two words. Kin terms (like puqloD and lorloD) are set terms, regular vocabulary items. For animals, Klingon doesn't have special words for male vs. female. That is, English has ram (male), ewe (female), sheep (both/either), but Klingon has only an equivalent for sheep - no separate word for ram or ewe. If it's necessary to specify sex/gender, it's done using the noun-noun construction. qItbe'! SaHa'ra' - Sahara (Earth desert). In Arabic, the sahara desert is called a?-?a?ra' al-kubrá, meaning "the Great Desert." If the Klingon version came from Arabic, it would be something along those lines. But Maltz says Klingons got the name from Federation Standard, which is why it is pronounced SaHa'ra'. Would a Klingon say {SaHa'ra'} or {SaHa'ra' Deb}? That is, is the "desert" idea implicit in the name? -- De'vID
Would a Klingon say {SaHa'ra'} or {SaHa'ra' Deb}? That is, is the "desert" idea implicit in the name?
Am 01.09.2018 um 11:34 schrieb Felix Malmenbeck:
Well, Terran country names seem to stand on their own, and based on the gloss I would expect the same here, but I suspect that it may depend on the speaker's familiarity with the place, or the listener's anticipated familiarity.
Yes, that's true. It's like we talk about the "Krotmag region" and so on we do so to clarify that it's a region for those who don't know that. A terran without sufficient education would not know what "Sahara" means either, so a geography teacher would also say "This is the desert called Sahara". (as a sidenote, Sahara is arabic for desert, but that's now going too far :-) ) -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/TheLittlePrince
On Sat, 1 Sep 2018 at 14:50, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 01.09.2018 um 11:34 schrieb Felix Malmenbeck:
Well, Terran country names seem to stand on their own, and based on the gloss I would expect the same here, but I suspect that it may depend on the speaker's familiarity with the place, or the listener's anticipated familiarity.
Yes, that's true. It's like we talk about the "Krotmag region" and so on we do so to clarify that it's a region for those who don't know that.
You mean in Klingon? The {Sep} is necessary. {Qotmagh} is a person. {Qotmagh Sep} is a place.
(as a sidenote, Sahara is arabic for desert, but that's now going too far :-) )
Actually, that's just what I was thinking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_redundant_place_names -- De'vID
Am 01.09.2018 um 18:02 schrieb De'vID:> You mean in Klingon? The {Sep} is necessary. {Qotmagh} is a person.
{Qotmagh Sep} is a place.
Yeah - I guess I just picked the worst example I could pick for this...
Actually, that's just what I was thinking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_redundant_place_names
...but I see you got the point. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Geography
On Sat, 1 Sep 2018 at 11:34, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
Would a Klingon say {SaHa'ra'} or {SaHa'ra' Deb}? That is, is the "desert" idea implicit in the name?
Well, Terran country names seem to stand on their own, and based on the gloss I would expect the same here, but I suspect that it may depend on the speaker's familiarity with the place, or the listener's anticipated familiarity.
When speaking to a Terran Klingon, «SaHa'ra'» would probably suffice, but when speaking to an audience of Klingons who haven't taken Earth studies 101, you may need to specify «tera' yuQ 'avrI'qa' yuwey Sa'Hara' Deb».
It might also depend on the type of object it is. Note that all fruits/vegetables with borrowed names are {X naH} in Klingon, but native fruits/vegetables don't require {naH}, and foreign fruits/vegetables labeled using Klingon names are {tera' X}. However, native regions seem to be named {X Sep} whereas foreign ones are seemingly not. I was wondering which way geographic features fall, i.e., whether you have to say "Mount Hood {HuD}". -- De'vID
Am 01.09.2018 um 17:32 schrieb De'vID:
to be named {X Sep} whereas foreign ones are seemingly not. I was wondering which way geographic features fall, i.e., whether you have to say "Mount Hood {HuD}".
I think that is very much context related. Orand suggested to me to first say {tera' DIraq} and then leave of the word {tera'} in later repetition of the word. That's like when you speak English and introduce a new word to the listeners: "Today we will be travelling to the Nagtakal forest. The Nagtakal is very large and old..." -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Geography
maltz:
A male sheep, that is, a ram, is called DI'raq loD. It's two words. Kin terms (like puqloD and lorloD) are set terms, regular vocabulary items. SuStel: And there we go. lieven: There's again the situation where Okrand made a small mistake. So here we must just say that language is natural, it's not math :-) (Or Maltz needs to correct one of both.)
I don't understand; Where's the problem ? What's the mistake ? mayqel *I love maltz* qunen'oS
On Tue, Jan 1, 2019, 14:51 mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com wrote:
maltz:
A male sheep, that is, a ram, is called DI'raq loD. It's two words. Kin terms (like puqloD and lorloD) are set terms, regular vocabulary items. SuStel: And there we go. lieven: There's again the situation where Okrand made a small mistake. So here we must just say that language is natural, it's not math :-) (Or Maltz needs to correct one of both.)
I don't understand; Where's the problem ? What's the mistake ?
You've somehow messed up the quoted thread. Lieven was not replying to SuStel, but to me. In response to the revelation from Maltz which stated that Klingon doesn't have separate words for males and females of the same animal (which you've only partially quoted above), I wrote: {qItbe'}. This both means "Impossible!" and is the word for a specific female animal (i.e., I jokingly refuted the claim by providing a canon counterexample). That's what Lieven was replying to. Klingons consider {DI'raq loD} and {DI'raq be'} to be noun-noun constructions, but {qItbe'} (and {qItloD}) had previously been written as single words. But Okrand has sometimes been inconsistent in putting spaces in constructions like {DIvI'may'Duj}, and the Latin transcription we use to write Klingon isn't how natives write Klingon, so this isn't really a mistake in the Klingon language itself so much as a minor inconsistency in the use of spaces in how some words have been transcribed. -- De'vID
participants (9)
-
Alan Anderson -
De'vID -
Felix Malmenbeck -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunenoS -
nIqolay Q -
Rhona Fenwick -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel