Some time ago we had said, that we can't say {bortaS vItlhap} for "I take revenge". Why ? Because the "I take revenge" is an english phrase. On the other hand, we do say "bortas bIr jabblu' go figure", which is definitely an english phrase. This is a contradictory situation which confuses me greatly. mop qIj qunnoq Sent from my goat phone
The difference is that *bortaS bIr jablu'* is an attested native (canonical) Klingon phrase, whereas *bortaS tlhap* is not so attested. Languages can share the same metaphor, but don't have to. lay'tel SIvten On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 4:24 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Some time ago we had said, that we can't say {bortaS vItlhap} for "I take revenge". Why ? Because the "I take revenge" is an english phrase.
On the other hand, we do say "bortas bIr jabblu' go figure", which is definitely an english phrase.
This is a contradictory situation which confuses me greatly.
mop qIj qunnoq Sent from my goat phone
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
this argument is invalid ; it sounds like "shut up don't ask ; you will accept one phrase and reject another because we say so, and you'll like it". rules are rules. either accept "terran carry-overs" or reject them altogether. mop qIj qunnoq Sent from my goat phone On 7 Aug 2016 4:51 p.m., "MorphemeAddict" <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
The difference is that *bortaS bIr jablu'* is an attested native (canonical) Klingon phrase, whereas *bortaS tlhap* is not so attested. Languages can share the same metaphor, but don't have to.
lay'tel SIvten
On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 4:24 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Some time ago we had said, that we can't say {bortaS vItlhap} for "I take revenge". Why ? Because the "I take revenge" is an english phrase.
On the other hand, we do say "bortas bIr jabblu' go figure", which is definitely an english phrase.
This is a contradictory situation which confuses me greatly.
mop qIj qunnoq Sent from my goat phone
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
No, my point was that it's not a Terran 'carry-over'. The Klingon and English just happen to coincide in this case. What rules are you talking about? The only ones I know of are that 1) canon is supreme and non-canon, even if understandable, is suspect, at best, and 2) logic and English (or other languages') grammar or usage have no bearing on Klingon grammar and usage. lay'SIv On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 8:57 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
this argument is invalid ; it sounds like "shut up don't ask ; you will accept one phrase and reject another because we say so, and you'll like it".
rules are rules. either accept "terran carry-overs" or reject them altogether.
mop qIj qunnoq Sent from my goat phone
On 7 Aug 2016 4:51 p.m., "MorphemeAddict" <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
The difference is that *bortaS bIr jablu'* is an attested native (canonical) Klingon phrase, whereas *bortaS tlhap* is not so attested. Languages can share the same metaphor, but don't have to.
lay'tel SIvten
On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 4:24 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Some time ago we had said, that we can't say {bortaS vItlhap} for "I take revenge". Why ? Because the "I take revenge" is an english phrase.
On the other hand, we do say "bortas bIr jabblu' go figure", which is definitely an english phrase.
This is a contradictory situation which confuses me greatly.
mop qIj qunnoq Sent from my goat phone
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
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I see two reasons why {bortaS bIr jablu'DI' reH QaQqu' nay'.} is more valid than {bortaS tlhap}: 1) It's canonical; it's listed in The Klingon Way by Marc Okrand, and both in that book and in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan it is described as a Klingon proverb. 2) It's metaphorical. In the saying, revenge is explicitly referred to as a dish; thus it makes sense to use verbs that you would use to describe actions involving dishes.
rules are rules. either accept "terran carry-overs"
or reject them altogether.
Absolutely not. Language is erratic, which is why we cherish canonical examples. There are plenty of examples in natural languages where one expression exists in two different languages but another does not. For example, in both French and English you might say "I am tired." ("Je suis fatigué.") or "I am sad." ("Je suis triste."), but in French you should not say "I am warm." ("Je suis chaud.") but rather "I have heat." ("J'ai chaud."), and instead of "I am hungry." ("Je suis faim.") you have to say "I have hunger." ("J'ai faim.") In both English and Swedish you can say that something "takes time" ("tar tid"), and in both languages you can say that you "Devote your time" ("Ägnar din tid") to something. However, in English you can also "Spend your time" doing something, but when I once wrote in an essay that I "spenderar min tid" doing something, my Swedish teacher crossed it over with a red pen and said I was thinking too much in English. In English, the word "full" can mean either "filled" or "satiated". In Swedish, the word "full" means either "filled" or "drunk". In German, the word "voll" means either "filled" or "satiated" or "drunk". In Klingon, the word {Sov} carried the double meaning of "be aware of (a fact)" and "be acquainted with (a person)", which - at least as far as I'm aware - is fairly unique to English. However, unlike English, Klingon uses different words for "play" depending on if it's a structured game (Quj), just playing around (reH) or playing an instrument (chu', or one of the more specific musical verbs). There is no universal law which says that either languages must share all double meanings or none at all. The expression {bortaS bIr jablu'DI' reH QaQqu' nay'} explains to us that this particular double meaning *does* exist in both Klingon and English, at least when speaking metaphorically. If we did not have that canonical example to go by, that would no longer be a safe assumption. ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2016 15:57 To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] The contradiction of {bortaS} this argument is invalid ; it sounds like "shut up don't ask ; you will accept one phrase and reject another because we say so, and you'll like it". rules are rules. either accept "terran carry-overs" or reject them altogether. mop qIj qunnoq Sent from my goat phone On 7 Aug 2016 4:51 p.m., "MorphemeAddict" <lytlesw@gmail.com<mailto:lytlesw@gmail.com>> wrote: The difference is that *bortaS bIr jablu'* is an attested native (canonical) Klingon phrase, whereas *bortaS tlhap* is not so attested. Languages can share the same metaphor, but don't have to. lay'tel SIvten On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 4:24 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com<mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>> wrote: Some time ago we had said, that we can't say {bortaS vItlhap} for "I take revenge". Why ? Because the "I take revenge" is an english phrase. On the other hand, we do say "bortas bIr jabblu' go figure", which is definitely an english phrase. This is a contradictory situation which confuses me greatly. mop qIj qunnoq Sent from my goat phone _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org<mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org<mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
1) Sometimes Klingon and English idioms match. For example, saying one needs to wash one's hair as a way to reject a date. Sometimes they don't. A business having "changed hands" doesn't mean it is under new management in Klingon. We can't know what nonliteral meanings make sense in Klingon unless we are given that information. 2) There is a Klingon verb with the meaning that "take revenge" has in English. -- ghunchu'wI'
felix, muponta'mo' meqmey DaDelta'bogh, {bortaS vItlhap} vIlo'be'. HoS ngermeylIj 'ej lugh bIH 'e' vIchID. SKI: felix you convinced me. mop qIj qunnoq On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 7:47 AM, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
1) Sometimes Klingon and English idioms match. For example, saying one needs to wash one's hair as a way to reject a date. Sometimes they don't. A business having "changed hands" doesn't mean it is under new management in Klingon. We can't know what nonliteral meanings make sense in Klingon unless we are given that information.
2) There is a Klingon verb with the meaning that "take revenge" has in English.
-- ghunchu'wI' _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 07.08.2016 um 15:57 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
it sounds like "shut up don't ask; [...]
Actually, that's exectly how we should take it. No language is "logic". Sometimes you just have to accept it as it is. No reason to get upset. Just like Felix pointed out, in english we say "I am cold", french is "I have cold", and then German even says something absolutely weird "it is cold to me" (mir ist kalt). There is a story from qep'a' chorghDIch where an english speaker asked at the restaurant {nuq Daghaj?} for "what will you have", as in "what will you eat?" The german speaker only understands "what do you possess", because in german, you cannot "have" food. Don't be confused too easily. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
Off-topic: How is "it is cold to me" absolutely weird? After all, if I say, "I am cold", then someone could take my temperature and conclude that I'm still at 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit. So it's not so much that I am cold, as that I have a feeling of coldness... why? Because the air is cold, and making me feel coldness; it is cold to me. Much more logical than English! :-D -QISta' On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 3:08 AM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 07.08.2016 um 15:57 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
it sounds like "shut up don't ask; [...]
Actually, that's exectly how we should take it.
No language is "logic". Sometimes you just have to accept it as it is. No reason to get upset. Just like Felix pointed out, in english we say "I am cold", french is "I have cold", and then German even says something absolutely weird "it is cold to me" (mir ist kalt).
There is a story from qep'a' chorghDIch where an english speaker asked at the restaurant {nuq Daghaj?} for "what will you have", as in "what will you eat?" The german speaker only understands "what do you possess", because in german, you cannot "have" food.
Don't be confused too easily.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
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I used to know a Russian girl who would say "I feel myself cold" or "I feel myself sick". It's a direct extrapolation from the Russian. ter'eS From: Christa Hansberry <chransberry@gmail.com> To: tlhInganHol discussion group <tlhingan-hol@kli.org> Sent: Monday, August 8, 2016 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] The contradiction of {bortaS} Off-topic: How is "it is cold to me" absolutely weird? After all, if I say, "I am cold", then someone could take my temperature and conclude that I'm still at 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit. So it's not so much that I am cold, as that I have a feeling of coldness... why? Because the air is cold, and making me feel coldness; it is cold to me. Much more logical than English! :-D -QISta' On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 3:08 AM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote: Am 07.08.2016 um 15:57 schrieb mayqel qunenoS: it sounds like "shut up don't ask; [...] Actually, that's exectly how we should take it. No language is "logic". Sometimes you just have to accept it as it is. No reason to get upset. Just like Felix pointed out, in english we say "I am cold", french is "I have cold", and then German even says something absolutely weird "it is cold to me" (mir ist kalt). There is a story from qep'a' chorghDIch where an english speaker asked at the restaurant {nuq Daghaj?} for "what will you have", as in "what will you eat?" The german speaker only understands "what do you possess", because in german, you cannot "have" food. Don't be confused too easily. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingo nteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net ______________________________ _________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo. cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
By the way, I don't know for sure what "take revenge" means, but what about {noD} "retaliate"? -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
jIH:
It sounds like "shut up don't ask; [...] lieven: Actually, that's exectly how we should take it.
hahahahaha lieven:
but what about {noD} "retaliate"?
HIja'.. {noD} vISov 'a vIlo'Qo'. qatlh ? {bortaS vItlhap} vIparHa'mo'.. mop qIj qunnoq I'm writting without a dictionary, so if you read "your mother has a smooth forehead", don't blame me ! On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
By the way, I don't know for sure what "take revenge" means, but what about {noD} "retaliate"?
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 8/8/2016 5:11 AM, Lieven wrote:
By the way, I don't know for sure what "take revenge" means, but what about {noD} "retaliate"?
"Take revenge" has an important emotional component that "retaliate" lacks. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Lieven wrote:
By the way, I don't know for sure what "take revenge" means, but what about {noD} "retaliate"?
SuStel:
"Take revenge" has an important emotional component that "retaliate" lacks.
I'm not sure that's true of {noD}: batlh Heghlu'chugh noDnISbe' vay' An honorable death requires no vengeance. TKW cheQIHchugh manoDbe''a' Wrong us, shall we not seek revenge? TKW nurraj nIHlu'ta'mo' manoD We will avenge your stolen pride ["dignity"] (PB early draft) le'yo'raj nIHlu'ta'mo' penoD jatlh qeylIS And Kahless spoke to them ... about avenging their stolen pride PB Klingons may not distinguish between the two ideas; that is, they may take all these matters personally. -- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
On 8/8/2016 9:16 AM, Steven Boozer wrote:
Lieven wrote:
By the way, I don't know for sure what "take revenge" means, but what about {noD} "retaliate"? SuStel: "Take revenge" has an important emotional component that "retaliate" lacks. I'm not sure that's true of {noD}:
batlh Heghlu'chugh noDnISbe' vay' An honorable death requires no vengeance. TKW
cheQIHchugh manoDbe''a' Wrong us, shall we not seek revenge? TKW
nurraj nIHlu'ta'mo' manoD We will avenge your stolen pride ["dignity"] (PB early draft)
le'yo'raj nIHlu'ta'mo' penoD jatlh qeylIS And Kahless spoke to them ... about avenging their stolen pride PB
Klingons may not distinguish between the two ideas; that is, they may take all these matters personally.
Ah! Then I take it back; *noD* is the perfect verb for /take revenge/! -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
participants (9)
-
Alan Anderson -
Christa Hansberry -
Felix Malmenbeck -
Lieven -
mayqel qunenoS -
MorphemeAddict -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel -
Terrence Donnelly