How difficult is Klingon ?
I want to ask you this: How difficult do you think Klingon actually is ? On a scale of 1-100 (1 being ridiculously easy and 100 difficult as hell), how would you rate it ? qunnoq Sent from my goat phone
On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 10:39 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
On a scale of 1-100 (1 being ridiculously easy and 100 difficult as hell), how would you rate it ?
vagh mach tlhIngan Hol pab 'ej qub chut taQ nap tlhIngan Hol QIch le'be' tlhIngan Hol mu'tay' ngeDqu' tlhIngan Hol -- ghunchu'wI'
I agree with ghunchu'wI', but would maybe rate it a little higher. Maybe 20. As a linguist I off course have to tell you that languages cannot be classified into difficult and easy, because it's all relative and depends a great deal on your native tongue. I'm sitting in a chair here, of course. That being said, judging it from the perspective of a speaker of a typical European Indo-European language like English, German, Polish, Dutch, Swedish, Greek, etc., Klingon had some difficulties: the vocabulary is almost entirely new and there are no related similar languages, many of the sounds are quite difficult for Europeans to pronounce, the grammatical structures are not familiar, the way of expressing things is also different and in most cases doesn't seem like people on Europe would say things (rather than translating, you often have to reinterpret your thoughts). You also have to get used to rephrasing and coming up with creative ways to say the things you want, because of the comparatively simple structures and there small vocabulary. But these are all write basic things that can be learned within a relatively short time – you're the best example. What makes Klingon easy then? The very few rules: there are really not that many, and they usually don't have exceptions either. Most verbs and nouns behave the same. The syllable structure CVC(C) is super simple, and you could actually learn all the words in this language. And let's be honest: although it might be exotic, the grammar doesn't have much where you would say "Wow, this really is difficult and complicated." – the prefixes take quite some effort, sentences with {-moH} and {-lu'} are a bit tricky and often cause confusion or disagreement. But the rest, nah, not too hard, I think. The biggest advantage though, probably is that it's "finite" in a way: you can really learn it all. All words, all rules, plus s good knowledge of canon to get a good feeling for the language and some practice and you're an expert already. So I would put it at around 20. Some (including invented) languages are easier for speakers of (related) languages, but most would be way more difficult. Just my 2 Darseks. - André On 14 Aug 2016 21:10, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I want to ask you this:
How difficult do you think Klingon actually is ?
On a scale of 1-100 (1 being ridiculously easy and 100 difficult as hell), how would you rate it ?
qunnoq Sent from my goat phone
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
I agree with ghunchu'wI', but would maybe rate it a little higher. Maybe
I'm a relative newcomer, but what André said sums up my experience, except that because the vocabulary is composed mainly of monosyllables with a super simple CVC(C) structure, it's harder for me to retain. Maybe it's because there are far fewer error checking mechanisms in a vocabulary that includes a high percentage of all possible monosyllables. I seem to have a touch of dyslexia, too, so I frequently mix up words like QaH and QeH, or generate spoonerisms like *{Hor Sap}. I'm finding that spending more time reading is helping. I'm now reading nuq bop bom and my reading has become more fluent since I started. Also, it's a good read! ~mIp'av On Sunday, August 14, 2016, André Müller <esperantist@gmail.com> wrote: 20.
As a linguist I off course have to tell you that languages cannot be
classified into difficult and easy, because it's all relative and depends a great deal on your native tongue. I'm sitting in a chair here, of course.
That being said, judging it from the perspective of a speaker of a
typical European Indo-European language like English, German, Polish, Dutch, Swedish, Greek, etc., Klingon had some difficulties: the vocabulary is almost entirely new and there are no related similar languages, many of the sounds are quite difficult for Europeans to pronounce, the grammatical structures are not familiar, the way of expressing things is also different and in most cases doesn't seem like people on Europe would say things (rather than translating, you often have to reinterpret your thoughts). You also have to get used to rephrasing and coming up with creative ways to say the things you want, because of the comparatively simple structures and there small vocabulary.
But these are all write basic things that can be learned within a
relatively short time – you're the best example. What makes Klingon easy then? The very few rules: there are really not that many, and they usually don't have exceptions either. Most verbs and nouns behave the same. The syllable structure CVC(C) is super simple, and you could actually learn all the words in this language. And let's be honest: although it might be exotic, the grammar doesn't have much where you would say "Wow, this really is difficult and complicated." – the prefixes take quite some effort, sentences with {-moH} and {-lu'} are a bit tricky and often cause confusion or disagreement. But the rest, nah, not too hard, I think. The biggest advantage though, probably is that it's "finite" in a way: you can really learn it all. All words, all rules, plus s good knowledge of canon to get a good feeling for the language and some practice and you're an expert already.
So I would put it at around 20. Some (including invented) languages are
easier for speakers of (related) languages, but most would be way more difficult.
Just my 2 Darseks. - André
On 14 Aug 2016 21:10, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I want to ask you this:
How difficult do you think Klingon actually is ?
On a scale of 1-100 (1 being ridiculously easy and 100 difficult as
hell), how would you rate it ?
qunnoq Sent from my goat phone
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
s
thank you all for replying ; my opinion on this subject is a big "it depends". let me explain.. if someone: 1. really wants to learn 2. has the discipline to sit down, in order to get the job done 3. has help from experts then my rating would be: grammar 40/100 vocabulary 50/100 pronunciation I really can't decide writting klingon 40/100 real time speaking 70/100 however I believe, that the only way for someone to learn klingon is to have help from experts. the ONLY reason I managed to learn in a few months is because I had help from the experts of this list, who are the best klingonists in the world. (and I'm not saying this in order to flatter someone ; I'm saying it because it's the truth). however, if someone tries to learn on his own, then I truly believe that the difficulty he will encounter will be tremendous, let alone the fact, that in the end he will learn everything wrong. finally, on the question: "how difficult was klingon for YOU", then I will say 70%. And I will give this relatively high rating because in order to learn the basics (I still have a lot to learn), I have been working for 10 months so far, approximately 2 hours a day. but it was without a doubt, totally and definitely worth it ! qunnoq Sent from my goat phone On 15 Aug 2016 1:14 a.m., "Ed Bailey" <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm a relative newcomer, but what André said sums up my experience, except that because the vocabulary is composed mainly of monosyllables with a super simple CVC(C) structure, it's harder for me to retain. Maybe it's because there are far fewer error checking mechanisms in a vocabulary that includes a high percentage of all possible monosyllables. I seem to have a touch of dyslexia, too, so I frequently mix up words like QaH and QeH, or generate spoonerisms like *{Hor Sap}.
I'm finding that spending more time reading is helping. I'm now reading nuq bop bom and my reading has become more fluent since I started. Also, it's a good read!
~mIp'av
I agree with ghunchu'wI', but would maybe rate it a little higher. Maybe
On Sunday, August 14, 2016, André Müller <esperantist@gmail.com> wrote: 20.
As a linguist I off course have to tell you that languages cannot be
classified into difficult and easy, because it's all relative and depends a great deal on your native tongue. I'm sitting in a chair here, of course.
That being said, judging it from the perspective of a speaker of a
typical European Indo-European language like English, German, Polish, Dutch, Swedish, Greek, etc., Klingon had some difficulties: the vocabulary is almost entirely new and there are no related similar languages, many of the sounds are quite difficult for Europeans to pronounce, the grammatical structures are not familiar, the way of expressing things is also different and in most cases doesn't seem like people on Europe would say things (rather than translating, you often have to reinterpret your thoughts). You also have to get used to rephrasing and coming up with creative ways to say the things you want, because of the comparatively simple structures and there small vocabulary.
But these are all write basic things that can be learned within a
relatively short time – you're the best example. What makes Klingon easy then? The very few rules: there are really not that many, and they usually don't have exceptions either. Most verbs and nouns behave the same. The syllable structure CVC(C) is super simple, and you could actually learn all the words in this language. And let's be honest: although it might be exotic, the grammar doesn't have much where you would say "Wow, this really is difficult and complicated." – the prefixes take quite some effort, sentences with {-moH} and {-lu'} are a bit tricky and often cause confusion or disagreement. But the rest, nah, not too hard, I think. The biggest advantage though, probably is that it's "finite" in a way: you can really learn it all. All words, all rules, plus s good knowledge of canon to get a good feeling for the language and some practice and you're an expert already.
So I would put it at around 20. Some (including invented) languages are
easier for speakers of (related) languages, but most would be way more difficult.
Just my 2 Darseks. - André
On 14 Aug 2016 21:10, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I want to ask you this:
How difficult do you think Klingon actually is ?
On a scale of 1-100 (1 being ridiculously easy and 100 difficult as
hell), how would you rate it ?
qunnoq Sent from my goat phone
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
s
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
All of the numbers are subjective, so how are they determined? Guessing, I suppose. lay'tel SIvten On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 2:49 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
thank you all for replying ; my opinion on this subject is a big "it depends". let me explain..
if someone:
1. really wants to learn 2. has the discipline to sit down, in order to get the job done 3. has help from experts
then my rating would be:
grammar 40/100 vocabulary 50/100 pronunciation I really can't decide writting klingon 40/100 real time speaking 70/100
however I believe, that the only way for someone to learn klingon is to have help from experts.
the ONLY reason I managed to learn in a few months is because I had help from the experts of this list, who are the best klingonists in the world. (and I'm not saying this in order to flatter someone ; I'm saying it because it's the truth).
however, if someone tries to learn on his own, then I truly believe that the difficulty he will encounter will be tremendous, let alone the fact, that in the end he will learn everything wrong.
finally, on the question: "how difficult was klingon for YOU", then I will say 70%. And I will give this relatively high rating because in order to learn the basics (I still have a lot to learn), I have been working for 10 months so far, approximately 2 hours a day.
but it was without a doubt, totally and definitely worth it !
qunnoq Sent from my goat phone
On 15 Aug 2016 1:14 a.m., "Ed Bailey" <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm a relative newcomer, but what André said sums up my experience, except that because the vocabulary is composed mainly of monosyllables with a super simple CVC(C) structure, it's harder for me to retain. Maybe it's because there are far fewer error checking mechanisms in a vocabulary that includes a high percentage of all possible monosyllables. I seem to have a touch of dyslexia, too, so I frequently mix up words like QaH and QeH, or generate spoonerisms like *{Hor Sap}.
I'm finding that spending more time reading is helping. I'm now reading nuq bop bom and my reading has become more fluent since I started. Also, it's a good read!
~mIp'av
On Sunday, August 14, 2016, André Müller <esperantist@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree with ghunchu'wI', but would maybe rate it a little higher. Maybe 20.
As a linguist I off course have to tell you that languages cannot be classified into difficult and easy, because it's all relative and depends a great deal on your native tongue. I'm sitting in a chair here, of course.
That being said, judging it from the perspective of a speaker of a typical European Indo-European language like English, German, Polish, Dutch, Swedish, Greek, etc., Klingon had some difficulties: the vocabulary is almost entirely new and there are no related similar languages, many of the sounds are quite difficult for Europeans to pronounce, the grammatical structures are not familiar, the way of expressing things is also different and in most cases doesn't seem like people on Europe would say things (rather than translating, you often have to reinterpret your thoughts). You also have to get used to rephrasing and coming up with creative ways to say the things you want, because of the comparatively simple structures and there small vocabulary.
But these are all write basic things that can be learned within a relatively short time – you're the best example. What makes Klingon easy then? The very few rules: there are really not that many, and they usually don't have exceptions either. Most verbs and nouns behave the same. The syllable structure CVC(C) is super simple, and you could actually learn all the words in this language. And let's be honest: although it might be exotic, the grammar doesn't have much where you would say "Wow, this really is difficult and complicated." – the prefixes take quite some effort, sentences with {-moH} and {-lu'} are a bit tricky and often cause confusion or disagreement. But the rest, nah, not too hard, I think. The biggest advantage though, probably is that it's "finite" in a way: you can really learn it all. All words, all rules, plus s good knowledge of canon to get a good feeling for the language and some practice and you're an expert already.
So I would put it at around 20. Some (including invented) languages are easier for speakers of (related) languages, but most would be way more difficult.
Just my 2 Darseks. - André
On 14 Aug 2016 21:10, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I want to ask you this:
How difficult do you think Klingon actually is ?
On a scale of 1-100 (1 being ridiculously easy and 100 difficult as
hell), how would you rate it ?
qunnoq Sent from my goat phone
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
s
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
lay'tel SIvten
All of the numbers are subjective, so how are they determined? Guessing, I suppose.
Guessing if someone hasn't actually tried to learn the language, or personal experience if someone learns and uses the language. qunnoq ghogh HablI'wIjvo' vIngoHta' On 15 Aug 2016 6:16 p.m., "MorphemeAddict" <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
All of the numbers are subjective, so how are they determined? Guessing, I suppose.
lay'tel SIvten
On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 2:49 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
thank you all for replying ; my opinion on this subject is a big "it depends". let me explain..
if someone:
1. really wants to learn 2. has the discipline to sit down, in order to get the job done 3. has help from experts
then my rating would be:
grammar 40/100 vocabulary 50/100 pronunciation I really can't decide writting klingon 40/100 real time speaking 70/100
however I believe, that the only way for someone to learn klingon is to have help from experts.
the ONLY reason I managed to learn in a few months is because I had help from the experts of this list, who are the best klingonists in the world. (and I'm not saying this in order to flatter someone ; I'm saying it because it's the truth).
however, if someone tries to learn on his own, then I truly believe that the difficulty he will encounter will be tremendous, let alone the fact, that in the end he will learn everything wrong.
finally, on the question: "how difficult was klingon for YOU", then I will say 70%. And I will give this relatively high rating because in order to learn the basics (I still have a lot to learn), I have been working for 10 months so far, approximately 2 hours a day.
but it was without a doubt, totally and definitely worth it !
qunnoq Sent from my goat phone
On 15 Aug 2016 1:14 a.m., "Ed Bailey" <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm a relative newcomer, but what André said sums up my experience, except that because the vocabulary is composed mainly of monosyllables with a super simple CVC(C) structure, it's harder for me to retain. Maybe it's because there are far fewer error checking mechanisms in a vocabulary that includes a high percentage of all possible monosyllables. I seem to have a touch of dyslexia, too, so I frequently mix up words like QaH and QeH, or generate spoonerisms like *{Hor Sap}.
I'm finding that spending more time reading is helping. I'm now reading nuq bop bom and my reading has become more fluent since I started. Also, it's a good read!
~mIp'av
On Sunday, August 14, 2016, André Müller <esperantist@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree with ghunchu'wI', but would maybe rate it a little higher. Maybe 20.
As a linguist I off course have to tell you that languages cannot be classified into difficult and easy, because it's all relative and depends a great deal on your native tongue. I'm sitting in a chair here, of course.
That being said, judging it from the perspective of a speaker of a typical European Indo-European language like English, German, Polish, Dutch, Swedish, Greek, etc., Klingon had some difficulties: the vocabulary is almost entirely new and there are no related similar languages, many of the sounds are quite difficult for Europeans to pronounce, the grammatical structures are not familiar, the way of expressing things is also different and in most cases doesn't seem like people on Europe would say things (rather than translating, you often have to reinterpret your thoughts). You also have to get used to rephrasing and coming up with creative ways to say the things you want, because of the comparatively simple structures and there small vocabulary.
But these are all write basic things that can be learned within a relatively short time – you're the best example. What makes Klingon easy then? The very few rules: there are really not that many, and they usually don't have exceptions either. Most verbs and nouns behave the same. The syllable structure CVC(C) is super simple, and you could actually learn all the words in this language. And let's be honest: although it might be exotic, the grammar doesn't have much where you would say "Wow, this really is difficult and complicated." – the prefixes take quite some effort, sentences with {-moH} and {-lu'} are a bit tricky and often cause confusion or disagreement. But the rest, nah, not too hard, I think. The biggest advantage though, probably is that it's "finite" in a way: you can really learn it all. All words, all rules, plus s good knowledge of canon to get a good feeling for the language and some practice and you're an expert already.
So I would put it at around 20. Some (including invented) languages are easier for speakers of (related) languages, but most would be way more difficult.
Just my 2 Darseks. - André
On 14 Aug 2016 21:10, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I want to ask you this:
How difficult do you think Klingon actually is ?
On a scale of 1-100 (1 being ridiculously easy and 100 difficult as
hell), how would you rate it ?
qunnoq Sent from my goat phone
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
s
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
mayqel: Personal experience still involves guessing. What is the basis otherwise of a 70% score versus 71% or 69% or 30%? These are likely based on feelings of "Wow, that was hard!" (80%) or "That was easy!" (10%). Assigned specific numbers to feelings is like the hospital pain scale except that the pain scale is given with reference points (typical levels of pain and their respective amount of incapacitation) for each value, and you offered nothing like that. lay'tel SIvten On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 10:25 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
lay'tel SIvten
All of the numbers are subjective, so how are they determined? Guessing, I suppose.
Guessing if someone hasn't actually tried to learn the language, or personal experience if someone learns and uses the language.
qunnoq ghogh HablI'wIjvo' vIngoHta'
On 15 Aug 2016 6:16 p.m., "MorphemeAddict" <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
All of the numbers are subjective, so how are they determined? Guessing, I suppose.
lay'tel SIvten
On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 2:49 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
thank you all for replying ; my opinion on this subject is a big "it depends". let me explain..
if someone:
1. really wants to learn 2. has the discipline to sit down, in order to get the job done 3. has help from experts
then my rating would be:
grammar 40/100 vocabulary 50/100 pronunciation I really can't decide writting klingon 40/100 real time speaking 70/100
however I believe, that the only way for someone to learn klingon is to have help from experts.
the ONLY reason I managed to learn in a few months is because I had help from the experts of this list, who are the best klingonists in the world. (and I'm not saying this in order to flatter someone ; I'm saying it because it's the truth).
however, if someone tries to learn on his own, then I truly believe that the difficulty he will encounter will be tremendous, let alone the fact, that in the end he will learn everything wrong.
finally, on the question: "how difficult was klingon for YOU", then I will say 70%. And I will give this relatively high rating because in order to learn the basics (I still have a lot to learn), I have been working for 10 months so far, approximately 2 hours a day.
but it was without a doubt, totally and definitely worth it !
qunnoq Sent from my goat phone
On 15 Aug 2016 1:14 a.m., "Ed Bailey" <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm a relative newcomer, but what André said sums up my experience, except that because the vocabulary is composed mainly of monosyllables with a super simple CVC(C) structure, it's harder for me to retain. Maybe it's because there are far fewer error checking mechanisms in a vocabulary that includes a high percentage of all possible monosyllables. I seem to have a touch of dyslexia, too, so I frequently mix up words like QaH and QeH, or generate spoonerisms like *{Hor Sap}.
I'm finding that spending more time reading is helping. I'm now reading nuq bop bom and my reading has become more fluent since I started. Also, it's a good read!
~mIp'av
On Sunday, August 14, 2016, André Müller <esperantist@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree with ghunchu'wI', but would maybe rate it a little higher. Maybe 20.
As a linguist I off course have to tell you that languages cannot be classified into difficult and easy, because it's all relative and depends a great deal on your native tongue. I'm sitting in a chair here, of course.
That being said, judging it from the perspective of a speaker of a typical European Indo-European language like English, German, Polish, Dutch, Swedish, Greek, etc., Klingon had some difficulties: the vocabulary is almost entirely new and there are no related similar languages, many of the sounds are quite difficult for Europeans to pronounce, the grammatical structures are not familiar, the way of expressing things is also different and in most cases doesn't seem like people on Europe would say things (rather than translating, you often have to reinterpret your thoughts). You also have to get used to rephrasing and coming up with creative ways to say the things you want, because of the comparatively simple structures and there small vocabulary.
But these are all write basic things that can be learned within a relatively short time – you're the best example. What makes Klingon easy then? The very few rules: there are really not that many, and they usually don't have exceptions either. Most verbs and nouns behave the same. The syllable structure CVC(C) is super simple, and you could actually learn all the words in this language. And let's be honest: although it might be exotic, the grammar doesn't have much where you would say "Wow, this really is difficult and complicated." – the prefixes take quite some effort, sentences with {-moH} and {-lu'} are a bit tricky and often cause confusion or disagreement. But the rest, nah, not too hard, I think. The biggest advantage though, probably is that it's "finite" in a way: you can really learn it all. All words, all rules, plus s good knowledge of canon to get a good feeling for the language and some practice and you're an expert already.
So I would put it at around 20. Some (including invented) languages are easier for speakers of (related) languages, but most would be way more difficult.
Just my 2 Darseks. - André
On 14 Aug 2016 21:10, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I want to ask you this:
How difficult do you think Klingon actually is ?
On a scale of 1-100 (1 being ridiculously easy and 100 difficult as
hell), how would you rate it ?
qunnoq Sent from my goat phone
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
s
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Personal experience is by definition subjective. But even then, in order for someone to be able to give a rating, that person must be someone who learns and uses the language (in our case klingon). However people who only talk about klingon, and never talk while actually using klingon, are unqualified to give a rating and even if they did, their rating would be useless. The pain scale example which you used, is wrong, non applicable, and non comparable to the difficulty rating of a language. If you want to discuss it, then start a thread and we will analyze this in klingon. Are you up to the challenge ? qunnoq ghogh HablI'wIjvo' vIngoHta' On 15 Aug 2016 6:31 p.m., "MorphemeAddict" <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
mayqel: Personal experience still involves guessing. What is the basis otherwise of a 70% score versus 71% or 69% or 30%? These are likely based on feelings of "Wow, that was hard!" (80%) or "That was easy!" (10%). Assigned specific numbers to feelings is like the hospital pain scale except that the pain scale is given with reference points (typical levels of pain and their respective amount of incapacitation) for each value, and you offered nothing like that.
lay'tel SIvten
On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 10:25 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
lay'tel SIvten
All of the numbers are subjective, so how are they determined? Guessing, I suppose.
Guessing if someone hasn't actually tried to learn the language, or personal experience if someone learns and uses the language.
qunnoq ghogh HablI'wIjvo' vIngoHta'
On 15 Aug 2016 6:16 p.m., "MorphemeAddict" <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
All of the numbers are subjective, so how are they determined? Guessing, I suppose.
lay'tel SIvten
On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 2:49 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
thank you all for replying ; my opinion on this subject is a big "it depends". let me explain..
if someone:
1. really wants to learn 2. has the discipline to sit down, in order to get the job done 3. has help from experts
then my rating would be:
grammar 40/100 vocabulary 50/100 pronunciation I really can't decide writting klingon 40/100 real time speaking 70/100
however I believe, that the only way for someone to learn klingon is to have help from experts.
the ONLY reason I managed to learn in a few months is because I had help from the experts of this list, who are the best klingonists in the world. (and I'm not saying this in order to flatter someone ; I'm saying it because it's the truth).
however, if someone tries to learn on his own, then I truly believe that the difficulty he will encounter will be tremendous, let alone the fact, that in the end he will learn everything wrong.
finally, on the question: "how difficult was klingon for YOU", then I will say 70%. And I will give this relatively high rating because in order to learn the basics (I still have a lot to learn), I have been working for 10 months so far, approximately 2 hours a day.
but it was without a doubt, totally and definitely worth it !
qunnoq Sent from my goat phone
On 15 Aug 2016 1:14 a.m., "Ed Bailey" <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm a relative newcomer, but what André said sums up my experience, except that because the vocabulary is composed mainly of monosyllables with a super simple CVC(C) structure, it's harder for me to retain. Maybe it's because there are far fewer error checking mechanisms in a vocabulary that includes a high percentage of all possible monosyllables. I seem to have a touch of dyslexia, too, so I frequently mix up words like QaH and QeH, or generate spoonerisms like *{Hor Sap}.
I'm finding that spending more time reading is helping. I'm now reading nuq bop bom and my reading has become more fluent since I started. Also, it's a good read!
~mIp'av
On Sunday, August 14, 2016, André Müller <esperantist@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree with ghunchu'wI', but would maybe rate it a little higher. Maybe 20.
As a linguist I off course have to tell you that languages cannot be classified into difficult and easy, because it's all relative and depends a great deal on your native tongue. I'm sitting in a chair here, of course.
That being said, judging it from the perspective of a speaker of a typical European Indo-European language like English, German, Polish, Dutch, Swedish, Greek, etc., Klingon had some difficulties: the vocabulary is almost entirely new and there are no related similar languages, many of the sounds are quite difficult for Europeans to pronounce, the grammatical structures are not familiar, the way of expressing things is also different and in most cases doesn't seem like people on Europe would say things (rather than translating, you often have to reinterpret your thoughts). You also have to get used to rephrasing and coming up with creative ways to say the things you want, because of the comparatively simple structures and there small vocabulary.
But these are all write basic things that can be learned within a relatively short time – you're the best example. What makes Klingon easy then? The very few rules: there are really not that many, and they usually don't have exceptions either. Most verbs and nouns behave the same. The syllable structure CVC(C) is super simple, and you could actually learn all the words in this language. And let's be honest: although it might be exotic, the grammar doesn't have much where you would say "Wow, this really is difficult and complicated." – the prefixes take quite some effort, sentences with {-moH} and {-lu'} are a bit tricky and often cause confusion or disagreement. But the rest, nah, not too hard, I think. The biggest advantage though, probably is that it's "finite" in a way: you can really learn it all. All words, all rules, plus s good knowledge of canon to get a good feeling for the language and some practice and you're an expert already.
So I would put it at around 20. Some (including invented) languages are easier for speakers of (related) languages, but most would be way more difficult.
Just my 2 Darseks. - André
On 14 Aug 2016 21:10, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote: > > I want to ask you this: > > How difficult do you think Klingon actually is ? > > On a scale of 1-100 (1 being ridiculously easy and 100 difficult as hell), how would you rate it ? > > qunnoq > Sent from my goat phone > > _______________________________________________ > tlhIngan-Hol mailing list > tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org > http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org > s
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participants (5)
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Alan Anderson -
André Müller -
Ed Bailey -
mayqel qunenoS -
MorphemeAddict