While I was reading klingonska, I came across the various ways of asking/telling time. And my favourite one by far, was the "how many times have heard it" method; it sounds exotic and the very fact that we don't know for sure "what is actually being heard" adds an even more "alien" punch to the experience of telling time in klingon. It is a pity that by using this method, one can only express time, if it is for example one 'o clock, two 'o clock etc.. Unfortunately we can't express - by the use this method - a time like 10.20, 11.40 etc. qunnoH jan puqloD
On 4 November 2016 at 09:24, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
It is a pity that by using this method, one can only express time, if it is for example one 'o clock, two 'o clock etc.. Unfortunately we can't express - by the use this method - a time like 10.20, 11.40 etc.
cha'maH tup ret wa'maHlogh Qoy'lu'pu', cha'maH tup pI -- De'vID
On 4 November 2016 at 09:24, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
It is a pity that by using this method, one can only express time, if it is for example one 'o clock, two 'o clock etc.. Unfortunately we can't express - by the use this method - a time like 10.20, 11.40 etc.
cha'maH tup ret wa'maHlogh Qoy'lu'pu', cha'maH tup pIq wa'maH cha'logh Qoy'lu'pu'. No different than "20 after 10" or "20 til 12". -- De'vID
De'vID:
cha'maH tup ret wa'maHlogh Qoy'lu'pu', cha'maH tup pIq wa'maH cha'logh Qoy'lu'pu'.
I'm happy to read your reply, because it dissolves a misconception of mine with regards to telling time. However, I need to ask you: At the examples that you wrote, I noticed that the minutes are being written first followed by the hour. Can someone write the hour first, and then write the minutes ? I mean, can I write {wa'maH cha'maHlogh tup ret Qoy'lu'pu'} ? qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 4 Nov 2016 12:52 pm, "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On 4 November 2016 at 09:24, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
It is a pity that by using this method, one can only express time, if it is for example one 'o clock, two 'o clock etc.. Unfortunately we can't express - by the use this method - a time like 10.20, 11.40 etc.
cha'maH tup ret wa'maHlogh Qoy'lu'pu', cha'maH tup pIq wa'maH cha'logh Qoy'lu'pu'.
No different than "20 after 10" or "20 til 12".
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
and I just thought of an additional question. Can the {Qoy'lu'pu'} be used with every time-telling klingon method ? qunnoH ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 4 Nov 2016 3:04 pm, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
De'vID:
cha'maH tup ret wa'maHlogh Qoy'lu'pu', cha'maH tup pIq wa'maH cha'logh Qoy'lu'pu'.
I'm happy to read your reply, because it dissolves a misconception of mine with regards to telling time.
However, I need to ask you:
At the examples that you wrote, I noticed that the minutes are being written first followed by the hour.
Can someone write the hour first, and then write the minutes ? I mean, can I write {wa'maH cha'maHlogh tup ret Qoy'lu'pu'} ?
qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
On 4 Nov 2016 12:52 pm, "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On 4 November 2016 at 09:24, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
It is a pity that by using this method, one can only express time, if it is for example one 'o clock, two 'o clock etc.. Unfortunately we can't express - by the use this method - a time like 10.20, 11.40 etc.
cha'maH tup ret wa'maHlogh Qoy'lu'pu', cha'maH tup pIq wa'maH cha'logh Qoy'lu'pu'.
No different than "20 after 10" or "20 til 12".
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 4 November 2016 at 14:04, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
De'vID:
cha'maH tup ret wa'maHlogh Qoy'lu'pu', cha'maH tup pIq wa'maH cha'logh Qoy'lu'pu'.
I'm happy to read your reply, because it dissolves a misconception of mine with regards to telling time.
However, I need to ask you:
At the examples that you wrote, I noticed that the minutes are being written first followed by the hour.
Can someone write the hour first, and then write the minutes ? I mean, can I write {wa'maH cha'maHlogh tup ret Qoy'lu'pu'} ?
nuqjatlh? wa'maHvatlh cha'maH rep wa'maH wa'vatlh loSmaH rep -- De'vID
De'vID:
wa'maHvatlh cha'maH rep wa'maH wa'vatlh loSmaH rep
If I want to express these with the {Qoy'lu'pu'}, then how do I do it ? {wa'maHvatlh cha'maHlogh Qoy'lu'pu'} and {wa'maH wa'vatlh loSmaHlogh Qoy'lu'pu'} ? qunnoH jan puqloD On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:56 PM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On 4 November 2016 at 14:04, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
De'vID:
cha'maH tup ret wa'maHlogh Qoy'lu'pu', cha'maH tup pIq wa'maH cha'logh Qoy'lu'pu'.
I'm happy to read your reply, because it dissolves a misconception of mine with regards to telling time.
However, I need to ask you:
At the examples that you wrote, I noticed that the minutes are being written first followed by the hour.
Can someone write the hour first, and then write the minutes ? I mean, can I write {wa'maH cha'maHlogh tup ret Qoy'lu'pu'} ?
nuqjatlh?
wa'maHvatlh cha'maH rep wa'maH wa'vatlh loSmaH rep
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 4 November 2016 at 17:09, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
De'vID:
wa'maHvatlh cha'maH rep wa'maH wa'vatlh loSmaH rep
If I want to express these with the {Qoy'lu'pu'}, then how do I do it ? {wa'maHvatlh cha'maHlogh Qoy'lu'pu'} and {wa'maH wa'vatlh loSmaHlogh Qoy'lu'pu'} ?
qaja'pu' jay'! {cha'maH tup ret wa'maHlogh Qoy'lu'pu', cha'maH tup pIq wa'maH cha'logh Qoy'lu'pu'.} -- De'vID
De'vID:
qaja'pu' jay'
hehehe ! ok ! So, to summarize all this (in order to add the conclusions to my notes), the {Qoy'lu'pu'} works only in the way described in the given examples: {cha'maH tup ret wa'maHlogh Qoy'lu'pu', cha'maH tup pIq wa'maH cha'logh Qoy'lu'pu'}. maj ! DaHjaj pab De' chu' vIghojpu'mo', jIbel. qatlho' De'vID ! qunnoH jan puqloD On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 6:18 PM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On 4 November 2016 at 17:09, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
De'vID:
wa'maHvatlh cha'maH rep wa'maH wa'vatlh loSmaH rep
If I want to express these with the {Qoy'lu'pu'}, then how do I do it ? {wa'maHvatlh cha'maHlogh Qoy'lu'pu'} and {wa'maH wa'vatlh loSmaHlogh Qoy'lu'pu'} ?
qaja'pu' jay'!
{cha'maH tup ret wa'maHlogh Qoy'lu'pu', cha'maH tup pIq wa'maH cha'logh Qoy'lu'pu'.}
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Here's Okrand's original post from February 1999. AFAIK there is no further information on using the {Qoylu'pu} formula. Notice that the numbers used with {-logh} are relatively small - e.g. twice, six times, eight times - as if counting the hourly chimes of a clock or the half-hourly "bells" on a ship. Voragh *************************************************************************** From: Marc Okrand <...> Newsgroups: startrek.klingon Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 Subject: Re: wanI' to replace time related relative pronoun Will Martin wrote:
Meanwhile, wouldn't it be really cool if Marc Okrand just told us how to deal with time issues like this? I mean, "What time is it?" seems like a basic enough question. The only answer he has given us so far is the possible idiom {tlhaqwIj chu'Ha'lu'pu'}. I would think a Klingon would have a more straight-forward way of asking what time it is. Or maybe a Klingon simply would not ask what time it is unless his tlhaq was broken or missing?
Actually, there are several ways to ask "What time is it?" in Klingon. Here are a couple. In dealing with time in interplanetary communication, Klingons have come to use the 24-hour system favored by the Federation. There are 24 hours in a day (meaning 24 Earth hours in an Earth day), numbered one through 24. For example: tera' rep wa' "Earth hour one" or "one o'clock" tera' rep cha'maH "Earth hour 20" or "20 o'clock" or "eight o'clock p.m." tera' rep loS wejmaH "Earth hour 4:30" If the context is clear, the word tera' "Earth" may be left out: rep cha'maH "20 o'clock, eight o'clock p.m." When working within this system, one doesn't inquire as to the time; one demands that the number of the current hour be specified. Thus, the equivalent expression to "What time is it?" is a command: rep yIper! "Ascertain the hour! Specify the hour!" This is literally "Label the hour!". Though the verb per "label" is usually used in the sense of "attach or assign a name to," it can also be used for such notions as "ascertain, specify, pin down." This is not considered slang or idiomatic. When giving the time using this system, hours are numbered, not counted. That is, one says rep cha' "hour two, hour number two, two o'clock," not cha' rep or cha' repmey "two hours" (a plural suffix, here -mey, is not needed when a number modifies a noun, but it is sometimes used anyway). Accordingly, it is not customary to ask for the time by saying rep tItogh or repmey tItogh "Count the hours!". In nonmilitary contexts (as rare as these may be) and in situations where interplanetary communication is not a concern, the most common way of asking "What time is it?" in Klingon is quite different. It is based on the way the question was asked long ago, in a time before Klingons traveled around the galaxy and before there was any significant amount of interaction between Klingons and residents of other planets: 'arlogh Qoylu'pu'? This is literally "How many times has (someone) heard (it)?" or "How many times has it been heard?" ('arlogh "how many times?" a word that functions adverbially, made up of the question word 'ar "how much? how many?" and the special number suffix -logh "times" [as in "six times"]; Qoylu'pu' "someone has heard (it)," made up of Qoy "hear," -lu' "indefinite subject," -pu' "perfective," that is, the action has been completed). What is not clear from this locution is what it is that has supposedly been heard. In modern Klingon, the "what" in this phrase is never expressed. It appears as though, long ago, at least some Klingons were notified of the time by some audible signal (though what means were used to calculate the time in the first place remain to be discovered). Perhaps this signal was a specific sound (a person shouting? a beat on a drum? a gong? the growl of an animal?) and that word was originally part of the expression, for example, 'arlogh bey Qoylu'pu'? "How many times has someone heard the howl? How many times has the howl been heard?" Or maybe the expression contained a more general word such as ghum "alarm" or wab "sound, noise": 'arlogh wab Qoylu'pu'? "How many times has someone heard the sound? How many times has the sound been heard?" It has also been speculated that there was once a bit more to this expression, namely an element stating the time period the questioner was concerned about. For example, maybe people said: DaHjaj 'arlogh Qoylu'pu'? That is, "Today, how many times has someone heard it?", suggesting that the questioner is concerned about how much time has gone by "today" (as opposed to, say, "this week"). Or maybe the fuller expression was a little less specific: qen 'arlogh Qoylu'pu'? "Recently, how many times has someone heard it?" (qen "recently, a short time ago"). Regardless of its original full form, the expression comes down to us now as simply 'arlogh Qoylu'pu'?. The phrase is considered an idiom because what it means ("What time is it?") cannot be understood on the basis of the meanings of its components ("How many times has someone heard it?"). The answer to the question 'arlogh "How many times?" is, as might be expected, X-logh, where X is some number. For example: cha'logh Qoylu'pu'. This is literally "Someone has heard it twice" or "It has been heard twice" (cha'logh "twice," from cha' "two" plus -logh "times"). This is the Klingon equivalent to "It's two o'clock." Originally, this was a statement of time in the traditional Klingon system, but it is now also used for the 24-hour system. The idiomatic 'arlogh Qoylu'pu' also shows up in such questions as "What time do we leave?": mamejDI' 'arlogh Qoylu'pu'? This is literally "When we leave, how many times will someone have heard (it)?" or "When we leave, how many times will it have been heard?". An answer might be "We (will) leave at eight o'clock: mamejDI' chorghlogh Qoylu'pu' Literally, "When we leave, someone will have heard (it) eight times". Since subordinate clauses such as mamejDI' "when we leave" can come before or after the main clause, it's also possible to say: 'arlogh Qoylu'pu' mamejDI'? chorghlogh Qoylu'pu' mamejDI'. Literally, "How many times will someone have heard (it) when we leave? Someone will have heard (it) eight times when we leave." In actual conversation, of course, it's usually not so repetitive. You'd probably hear: 'arlogh Qoylu'pu' mamejDI'? chorghlogh Qoylu'pu'. "How many times will someone have heard (it) when we leave? Someone will have heard (it) eight times." Or even: 'arlogh Qoylu'pu' mamejDI'? chorghlogh. "How many times will someone have heard (it) when we leave? Eight times." ***************************************************************************
mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
De'vID:
wa'maHvatlh cha'maH rep wa'maH wa'vatlh loSmaH rep
If I want to express these with the {Qoy'lu'pu'}, then how do I do it ? {wa'maHvatlh cha'maHlogh Qoy'lu'pu'} and {wa'maH wa'vatlh loSmaHlogh Qoy'lu'pu'} ?
qaja'pu' jay'!
{cha'maH tup ret wa'maHlogh Qoy'lu'pu', cha'maH tup pIq wa'maH cha'logh Qoy'lu'pu'.}
-- De'vID _______________________________________________
ok, thanks ! I'll add this to my notes too ! qunnoH jan puqloD On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 6:35 PM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
Here's Okrand's original post from February 1999. AFAIK there is no further information on using the {Qoylu'pu} formula. Notice that the numbers used with {-logh} are relatively small - e.g. twice, six times, eight times - as if counting the hourly chimes of a clock or the half-hourly "bells" on a ship.
Voragh
*************************************************************************** From: Marc Okrand <...> Newsgroups: startrek.klingon Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 Subject: Re: wanI' to replace time related relative pronoun
Will Martin wrote:
Meanwhile, wouldn't it be really cool if Marc Okrand just told us how to deal with time issues like this? I mean, "What time is it?" seems like a basic enough question. The only answer he has given us so far is the possible idiom {tlhaqwIj chu'Ha'lu'pu'}. I would think a Klingon would have a more straight-forward way of asking what time it is. Or maybe a Klingon simply would not ask what time it is unless his tlhaq was broken or missing?
Actually, there are several ways to ask "What time is it?" in Klingon. Here are a couple.
In dealing with time in interplanetary communication, Klingons have come to use the 24-hour system favored by the Federation. There are 24 hours in a day (meaning 24 Earth hours in an Earth day), numbered one through 24. For example:
tera' rep wa' "Earth hour one" or "one o'clock"
tera' rep cha'maH "Earth hour 20" or "20 o'clock" or "eight o'clock p.m."
tera' rep loS wejmaH "Earth hour 4:30"
If the context is clear, the word tera' "Earth" may be left out:
rep cha'maH "20 o'clock, eight o'clock p.m."
When working within this system, one doesn't inquire as to the time; one demands that the number of the current hour be specified. Thus, the equivalent expression to "What time is it?" is a command:
rep yIper! "Ascertain the hour! Specify the hour!"
This is literally "Label the hour!". Though the verb per "label" is usually used in the sense of "attach or assign a name to," it can also be used for such notions as "ascertain, specify, pin down." This is not considered slang or idiomatic.
When giving the time using this system, hours are numbered, not counted. That is, one says rep cha' "hour two, hour number two, two o'clock," not cha' rep or cha' repmey "two hours" (a plural suffix, here -mey, is not needed when a number modifies a noun, but it is sometimes used anyway). Accordingly, it is not customary to ask for the time by saying rep tItogh or repmey tItogh "Count the hours!".
In nonmilitary contexts (as rare as these may be) and in situations where interplanetary communication is not a concern, the most common way of asking "What time is it?" in Klingon is quite different. It is based on the way the question was asked long ago, in a time before Klingons traveled around the galaxy and before there was any significant amount of interaction between Klingons and residents of other planets:
'arlogh Qoylu'pu'?
This is literally "How many times has (someone) heard (it)?" or "How many times has it been heard?" ('arlogh "how many times?" a word that functions adverbially, made up of the question word 'ar "how much? how many?" and the special number suffix -logh "times" [as in "six times"]; Qoylu'pu' "someone has heard (it)," made up of Qoy "hear," -lu' "indefinite subject," -pu' "perfective," that is, the action has been completed).
What is not clear from this locution is what it is that has supposedly been heard. In modern Klingon, the "what" in this phrase is never expressed.
It appears as though, long ago, at least some Klingons were notified of the time by some audible signal (though what means were used to calculate the time in the first place remain to be discovered). Perhaps this signal was a specific sound (a person shouting? a beat on a drum? a gong? the growl of an animal?) and that word was originally part of the expression, for example, 'arlogh bey Qoylu'pu'? "How many times has someone heard the howl? How many times has the howl been heard?" Or maybe the expression contained a more general word such as ghum "alarm" or wab "sound, noise": 'arlogh wab Qoylu'pu'? "How many times has someone heard the sound? How many times has the sound been heard?"
It has also been speculated that there was once a bit more to this expression, namely an element stating the time period the questioner was concerned about. For example, maybe people said:
DaHjaj 'arlogh Qoylu'pu'?
That is, "Today, how many times has someone heard it?", suggesting that the questioner is concerned about how much time has gone by "today" (as opposed to, say, "this week").
Or maybe the fuller expression was a little less specific:
qen 'arlogh Qoylu'pu'?
"Recently, how many times has someone heard it?" (qen "recently, a short time ago").
Regardless of its original full form, the expression comes down to us now as simply 'arlogh Qoylu'pu'?. The phrase is considered an idiom because what it means ("What time is it?") cannot be understood on the basis of the meanings of its components ("How many times has someone heard it?").
The answer to the question 'arlogh "How many times?" is, as might be expected, X-logh, where X is some number. For example:
cha'logh Qoylu'pu'.
This is literally "Someone has heard it twice" or "It has been heard twice" (cha'logh "twice," from cha' "two" plus -logh "times"). This is the Klingon equivalent to "It's two o'clock." Originally, this was a statement of time in the traditional Klingon system, but it is now also used for the 24-hour system.
The idiomatic 'arlogh Qoylu'pu' also shows up in such questions as "What time do we leave?":
mamejDI' 'arlogh Qoylu'pu'?
This is literally "When we leave, how many times will someone have heard (it)?" or "When we leave, how many times will it have been heard?".
An answer might be "We (will) leave at eight o'clock:
mamejDI' chorghlogh Qoylu'pu'
Literally, "When we leave, someone will have heard (it) eight times".
Since subordinate clauses such as mamejDI' "when we leave" can come before or after the main clause, it's also possible to say:
'arlogh Qoylu'pu' mamejDI'? chorghlogh Qoylu'pu' mamejDI'.
Literally, "How many times will someone have heard (it) when we leave? Someone will have heard (it) eight times when we leave."
In actual conversation, of course, it's usually not so repetitive. You'd probably hear:
'arlogh Qoylu'pu' mamejDI'? chorghlogh Qoylu'pu'.
"How many times will someone have heard (it) when we leave? Someone will have heard (it) eight times."
Or even:
'arlogh Qoylu'pu' mamejDI'? chorghlogh.
"How many times will someone have heard (it) when we leave? Eight times."
***************************************************************************
mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
De'vID:
wa'maHvatlh cha'maH rep wa'maH wa'vatlh loSmaH rep
If I want to express these with the {Qoy'lu'pu'}, then how do I do it ? {wa'maHvatlh cha'maHlogh Qoy'lu'pu'} and {wa'maH wa'vatlh loSmaHlogh Qoy'lu'pu'} ?
qaja'pu' jay'!
{cha'maH tup ret wa'maHlogh Qoy'lu'pu', cha'maH tup pIq wa'maH cha'logh Qoy'lu'pu'.}
-- De'vID _______________________________________________
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
participants (3)
-
De'vID -
mayqel qunenoS -
Steven Boozer