lieven:
ghorgh [bItlhutlh DaneH] (a question word in front of a SAO) and not [ghorgh bItlhutlh] DaneH (a Question as object)
and why don't we just write : {bItlhutlh ghorgh DaneH} thus avoiding the confusion ? also I just noticed this contradiction on the following three sentences, from the klingonska article:
yan 'ISletlh muv 'Iv DaneH Qang. - Chancellor, who do you want for the Yan-Isleth? nuq vIjatlh DaneH. - What do you want me to say? Qang HoHta' 'Iv 'e' Dalegh. - Who did you see kill the Chancellor?
on the first and third sentence, the {'Iv} is placed before the {neH} and {'e'} respectively. why on the second it is being placed at the beginning of the sentence ? mop Hurgh Dtlh On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 6:54 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I believe this settles the matter :
http://klingonska.org/canon/2011-10-30-email.txt
--- quote starts ---
In an e-mail from 1998 ( http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=1998-05-28- email.txt&get=source ), DloraH decribed an exchange with Marc Okrand: <http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=1998-05-28-email.txt&get=source>
"The first one I nailed him with was our lovely QAO. Uh-oh. You can not use a "question" as an object; but... it is not known yet if Klingon question words can act as one of those relative things, uh, relative pronoun is it? You guys know what I'm refering to. So basicly we didn't really get anywhere with this one yet. The safest thing for now would be to recast if possible."
This seemed to rule the above alternative out, and there's since been no indication that one can use words like nuq and 'Iv as relative pronouns, and MO seems to prefer constructions involving -bogh and ngu' (such as <jar DamaSqu'bogh yIngu'>, <nuH DaneHbogh yIngu'> and <Daq DaDabbogh yIngu'>).
However, there's been one other option up for consideration: Can you use a question as an object if the resulting two-sentence construction remains a question? For example, can we ask: yan 'ISletlh muv 'Iv DaneH Qang. - Chancellor, who do you want for the Yan-Isleth? nuq vIjatlh DaneH. - What do you want me to say? Qang HoHta' 'Iv 'e' Dalegh. - Who did you see kill the Chancellor?
Well, with this new canonical sentence - nuq Datlhutlh DaneH - it appears that this ancient question has been answered: YES WE CAN!
--- quote ends ---
all these months I believed that all qao's are illegal. in dark of the above, I will be qao'ing as there's no tomorrow.
dth qunnoq
On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 6:08 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 7/13/2016 10:10 AM, De'vID wrote:
Are you saying that any QAO *construction* is just ungrammatical? I was under the impression that what was considered incorrect was *misinterpreting* the question word in a QAO sentence as a relative pronoun.
We got our first question-as-object sentence from Okrand in TalkNow!: nuq Datlhutlh DaneH What do you want to drink? This supports the idea that you can use the pronoun-like (not relative pronoun) question words nuq and 'Iv in the place of the answer, just as TKD describes, even if it's in the first sentence of a sentence-as-object construction.
Would anyone on this mailing list even blink if they heard a Klingon ask {'Iv vIHoH DaneH}? Or misinterpret it as "you want who I kill"?
I would blink, because I'd be thinking, "Oh, it's a question-as-object construction, but it's one of the okay ones."
I actually think {chay' veSDuj'a' vIghajlaH DaH 'e' boyajchoH} is a perfectly grammatical Klingon sentence, just one that doesn't mean what Krankor wrote it means.
If it's grammatical, I don't understand what it means.
In fact, I think Klingon can express certain questions more economically and precisely than English.
{chay' maSuv 'e' ra'} "how did he order us to fight? (i.e., he ordered us to fight; what manner of fighting did he order us to do?)"
This does *not* mean "he commanded how we fight" as a statement, and it can be contrasted with: {maSuv chay' 'e' ra'} "how did he order us to fight? (i.e., did he talk to us in person, did he send a coded communique by subspace, did he send us a message by courier, etc.?)"
Although they are not spelled out in TKD, based on the TalkNow! example I would probably also accept sentences like:
nuqDaq bItlhutlh DaneH where do you want to drink?
ghorgh bItlhutlh DaneH when do you want to drink?
HIq 'ar Datlhutlh DaneH how many ales do you want to drink?
chay' Datlhutlh DaneH how do you want to drink?
But, as you say, I wouldn't accept sentences in which the question word is being used as a relative pronoun.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
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