Am 08.12.2016 um 17:42 schrieb SuStel:
{matlh nobmoH Qugh} = "Kruge causes Maltz to give" We all agree on that, right?
Not necessarily. p/aq'batlh/ gives us the sentence *ghaHvaD yIn Hegh je vIghojmoH*/I will... teach him life and death./
Don't forget that PB is not always 100% to be taken as a guide. In this example, I think that ghojmoH is taken literally as "teach". Either A) The object of ghojmoH is the person learning, so here it is "life and death" or B) maybe the use of -vaD takes over the object of the moH-ed verb?
By the same pattern, one can say that *matlh nobmoH Qugh* means /Kruge causes (someone) to give Maltz (to someone)./ But I think it can ALSO mean /Kruge causes Maltz to give./
Well, the latter is definitely sure. I had a look at TKD again now, and it says "[moH] indicates that the subject is causing a change of condition" The given example {tIjwI'ghom vIchenmoH} is translated as "I cause a boarding party to be formed". literally translated that would be {chen ghom 'e' vI-[cause]} a parallel to this is {matlh vInobmoH} "I cause maltz to give" Exchanging the subject and adapting the suffixes gives {matlh nobmoH Qugh} "Kruge makes maltz give" Following my above mentioned twist, this is {nob matlh 'e' [cause] Qugh} The object of the nob in that phrase comes first, so {taj nob matlh 'e' [cause] Qugh} and that's why I replaced the sentence back and got: {taj matlh nobmoH Qugh} And now, to marc the topic, I've added the -'e' {taj'e' matlh nobmoH Qugh} I still think that's a good workaround.
Yes, this is the classic problem, and the way Okrand has resolved it is
Thanks for the explanation. Can you tell me wher to find examples for this (not nitpicking intended, I really wanna know and understand.)
has been to (1) make the causer the subject, (2) make the causee the indirect object with *-vaD*, and (3) keep the thing acted upon as the direct object.
Following Okrand's pattern, the sentence would be *matlhvaD nuq nobmoH Qugh.*
{matlhvaD lojmIt poSmoH Qugh.} Does Kruge open the door for Maltz, (my interpretation) or does Kruge cause Maltz to open the door? (your interpretation) o_O or can it be both and it's this ambiguity that lead this discussion? -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net