On 1/6/2022 10:13 AM, Will Martin wrote:
I’d like a clarification. I sometimes have false memories, so I won’t assume that my memory that {HochHom X} would be plural (more than half of whole 0items in the group of items called X) and {X HochHom} would be singular (more than half of one item called X). When before the noun, I thought {HochHom} behaved grammatically like a number, and when following the noun, it acted more like a second noun in a noun-noun construction. I thought that {Hoch} worked the same way.
We've seen *Hoch X* and we've seen *X HochHom,* but I don't think we've seen *HochHom X.* More in a minute on *X Hoch.* We know the rules for *Hoch X* because Okrand told them to us. *Hoch X* means /each X, taken individually/ when X has no plural suffix on it, and it means /all X's, taken collectively/ when X has a plural suffix on it. You can call this "grammatically like a number" if you like, but it's a bit more complicated than that. We've seen *X HochHom* in canon and its use seems obvious. It means /most of X, the majority of X./ You can think of it as more like a noun-noun construction than a number if you like. I'm not sure the distinction of "like a number" and "like a noun-noun construction" is necessarily mutually exclusive or useful — that is, I wouldn't want to assign any predictive power to a declaration of being in one category or the other. We have, for example, the phrase *Hoch botlh* in /paq'batlh,/ which doesn't mean /each center;/ it's being used as a noun-noun construction, because the translation is /center of all./ As for *X Hoch,* we have an example of that in /paq'batlh: / *jIlay'DI' reH batlh jIpabchugh Qapla'meywIj Hoch vIta'ta' 'e' DaHar'a' quv vuv nuv pagh ghajbogh neH* /Did you think that my word of honor Would have carried me this far? Honor is for those with nothing to lose!/ I interpret *Qapla'meywIj Hoch*//as /all my successes,/ to correspond to the English /this far./ It seems to be exactly identical in meaning to *Hoch Qapla'meywIj.* The grammar here remains unexplained. All 21 other instances of *Hoch* in /paq'batlh/ follow known rules.
I’m guessing this is similar to numbers in general, since {vagh X} is five Xs, but {X vagh} is a specific item from a group of items called {X}, so that numbers indicate degree of plurality when preceding nouns, and describe a specific, singular noun when they follow it.
I wouldn't assume this is parallel. I wouldn't set up a guess as a parallel in order to be able to use the guess as the basis for predicting correct grammar. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name