Summary before: I'm not saying that I'm right; This is my opinion. Am 23.01.2018 um 11:50 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
translation. Indeed I meant to say, that if we want to write "someone eats", and that someone is not unspecified (therefore we know who it is), then we will write that he (the subject) does the {Sop}. We won't write {Soplu'be'}.
Yes, {Soplu' Subject} doesnt make sense. If you know the subject, it's not indefinite. We also all agree that {Soplu'} and {Sop vay'} are very close in meaning. A big difference can bee seen in the english translation, which is used in TKD, where Okrand used passive voice: "Is eaten" vs. "someone eats".
lieven: I'm afraid I can't understand this. {leghlu'} = someone unspecified sees {leghbe'lu'} = someone unspecified does not see {leghlu'be'} = not someone unspecified sees (someone sees, but that someone isn't unspecified). But if that is the case, if the one who sees isn't unspecified, then why not mention him ?
You do not understand because you try to translate literally, word by word, like a computer, repeating the suffixes like numbers. That doesn't work in Klingon.
lieven:
{leghlu'be'} "the act of seeing does not happen"
According to your translation, the {-be'} doesn't negate only the {-lu'}; it negates the entire {leghlu'}. And I don't understand.. On what canon is this interpretation based ? On the {tu'lu'be'} only ?
No, my interpretation is not based only on the {tu'lu'be'}-example. I don't focus on the rule that -be' negates the preceding suffix, I regard the whole thing and think of how -lu' changes the meaning of the subject. Asking differently: How could one negate an indefinite subject?
Please, don't misunderstand me; I'm not trying to quarrel with you,
No problem, I enjoy a good discussion and I can live with being pointed at my errors.
But I just think, that you're trying too hard to justify the erroneous choice of another, to use {-lu'be'}, instead of {-be'lu'}.
I would not try to explain someone else's mistakes, unless I think I'd do it the same way.
lieven:
The cake standing there has been {Soplu'be'}
Again, here I understand "someone ate the cake, and that someone isn't unspecified".
Honestly, I do not known on what canon or rule my assumption is based, maybe it's just my feeling - I think that "Sprachgefühl" even is an English word. There are several examples with {-lu'}, and each of them combined with {-be'} make me see them as the negation of the verb, not the suffix. {batlh Daqawlu'be'} "You are not remembered with honor" -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery