Great analysis. Great answer. I thought I had an idea about the exception, but on second thought, it doesn’t work... {quv HIja’chuq} There are exceptions, and then there are EXCEPTIONS, and this one is an EXCEPTION. Okay, on THIRD thought, it makes sense because it’s a command. There is no imperative prefix for the first person subject, no object, so it’s impossible to follow the rule about {-chuq} here. The only way to say “we/us” as an imperative (which always has the second person subject), if you mean singular you and singular me, is to use {HI-}. So, the sentence translates as an imperative direct quote: “Honor.” Don’t tell me that/Don’t discuss that with me. So, yes, it breaks the rule, but there’s no way to say this without breaking the rule. Maybe {ja’chuq} is a fossilized root verb, but it doesn’t have to be in order to explain why this is so exceptional. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Jul 6, 2020, at 9:26 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
I'm not going to try to solve all this for you, but I will point out a couple of things.
On 7/6/2020 8:42 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
According to the above, when {-'egh} and {-chuq} are used there is a subject, but how is it possible that there isn't an object as well ? In the {-'egh} case isn't the subject the object as well ? And in the {-chuq} case isn't the other party the object ? The text says the no-object prefix must be used with the reflexive suffixes. It doesn't say anything about whether there can be an object. One might reasonably conclude that requiring a no-object prefix also implies no object, but it doesn't actually say that.
Couldn't we use the prefix trick with {-'egh} and {-chuq} ? Aside from breaking the rule about using only no-object prefixes with the reflexive suffixes, I don't see any problem with it. I have recently speculated that the requirement to use no-object prefixes may not be about restricting which prefixes may be used with reflexive suffixes but about telling the reader which prefixes typically make sense with them.
"Okay, I want to say We see ourselves. See is legh, reflexive is -'egh, and we is maH. What's the right prefix? Lemme look at the chart... Hey, there's no we–us prefix listed! What do I do? Oh, it says here to use the no-object prefix with reflexive suffixes."
So, why couldn't we use the prefix trick with the {-'egh} and {-chuq} ? Mostly because of the rule that says they only allow no-object prefixes. But we have one canon violation of that rule, in paq'batlh: quv HIja'chuq Don't speak to me of honor! Some people question the strength of this as an example, though, because ja'chuq appears in the dictionary as a lexicalized word, so this may be an example of a root+prefix that has fossilized into its own root.
I suggest avoiding playing tricks with the reflexive verb's prefixes, simply because it's so unclear whether it's allowed or sensible.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org