On 4/23/2019 7:57 PM, De'vID wrote:
On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 at 15:09, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:
When trying to draw conclusions about what bits of Klingon that appear on Star Trek, we don't get to pick and choose which bits count as canon and which don't.
But don't we? I mean, choosing to treat only what comes from Okrand as canon is still a choice.
So is choosing Klingon that appears on a Star Trek show that was written by someone who has actually attempted to learn Klingon. So is choosing Klingon that only appears in officially licensed Star Trek books. So is choosing to add everyone's personal additions to the language to your personal dictionary. There is no naturally-spoken Klingon. There is no native population. So we HAVE to choose an approach to what is good Klingon and what isn't. It's unavoidable. The policy of this list is that canon is what Okrand says it is, nothing else. (This list's page <https://www.kli.org/wiki/tlhIngan-Hol_email_discussion_group> on kli.org points to this list's FAQ <http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/PortalCanon>, which is on Lieven's wiki, and it says "The word canon refers to official original sources for Klingon words, that is to pronouncements by Marc Okrand, because nobody else can create canon.") The KLI defines canon on its own page <https://www.kli.org/wiki/canon>, which says "Canonical tlhIngan Hol: that which is written (or sometimes merely spoken) by Marc Okrand." It describes some alternative views, such as your own, but the KLI's site itself repeats the quotation on Lieven's wiki, and supports the "only Okrand" view. Now consider Joe Shmoe, who wants to learn Klingon. He discovers there's a dictionary, a traveler's language guide, and a book of proverbs. He acquires the language tapes. He's feeling pretty good that he's got all the learning materials there are. Then he finds out that a bunch of people on the Internet are saying that Marc Okrand has spoken to them personally and told them the word for /be opposite /is *Dop.* Why should he accept that word? Okrand never published it. It has as much "canonicity" to Joe as a deleted scene on the cutting-room floor. Which policy is the correct one? None, objectively. We're talking about making silly sounds while pretending to speak the language of an alien race. If you're going to play along, you've got to pick one, or no one's going to agree on what they're saying. You can't rely on natural-language forces, because this isn't a natural language. If you had a large enough speaking base and practiced it through generations, maybe you could make it "go native," but none of us have that sense of rightness or wrongness in Klingon that comes with a native language. I don't understand the burning desire to proclaim /Discovery/ Klingon as canonical. The translators did their best to stick to canonical Klingon, so it's not like bringing in /Discovery/ Klingon will usher in fantastic new vistas in linguistic understanding. At best it would add additional data points in support of the current status quo of understanding of canonical Klingon, tautologically. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name