SuStel
The difference is that vay' indicates a definite "someone," while -lu' might be used when that someone is more abstract (though it doesn't necessarily mean that)
Thinking this over today with a clear mind, I continue being unable to grasp how {vay'} is definite while {-lu'} is abstract. Both refer to an unknown person. Unknown, by definition, is abstract and indefinite.. qunnoq On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 8:27 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
maj. I accept your explanation, and I will update/correct my notes/data base.
SuStel, jIHvaD pabvam DaQIjta'mo' qatlho'.
qunnoq ghogh HablI'wIjvo' vIngeHta'
On 19 Sep 2016 8:03 p.m., "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 9/19/2016 12:18 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
SuStel:
But I can tell you that -lu' does not mean "someone does something to someone." It means "someone or something unspecified or abstract does something." Maybe it's done to something, maybe not.
This confuses me greatly;
I read again section 4.2.5. of tkd, and yes the first thing it says is "This suffix is used to indicate that the subject is unknown, indefinite, and/or general".
On the other hand though, immediately it continues by saying: "Since the subject is always the same (that is, it is always unstated), the pronominal prefixes (section 4.1.1) are used in a different way". And proceeds by giving examples of the kind "someone/something does something to someone/something".
Even the example {Soplu'} is given as "it is eaten". Of course it could be also taken as "someone eats it"; but, how can someone write {Soplu'} in order to say "someone eats (period)" ?
If I wrote Sop HoD, does it mean the captain eats or the captain eats it? It means both! You know that.
So why should it trouble you that Soplu' means both one eats and one eats it?
Perhaps you will answer by saying "even if you say someone eats (period), then again *that* someone is eating something so we essentially say the same thing".
ok.. perhaps I can see your point; but my problem is that the tkd does not have a single example like {yItlu'} for "someone is walking", or {neplu'} for "someone is lying" etc. So, how can we accept such a usage of {-lu'} ?
How about quSDaq ba'lu''a' Is this seat taken? in the appendix?
SuStel:
The difference is that vay' indicates a definite "someone," while -lu' might be used when that someone is more abstract
I can't understand this either; how is {lu'} abstract and {vay'} definite ? Both mean someone. Someone unknown/unspecified. I can't see any difference between them.
vay' is a subject; -lu' is just the lack of a subject. -lu' means "Obviously something or someone does this action, but I'm not gonna say what it is."
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
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