Lets remember an example which was written sometime ago in another thread.. Ha'DIbaHvaD mo' wI'elmoH we cause the animal to enter the cage Here, we have three things: an animal, a cage, and us. What would happen though, if we had only two things ? "the vulcans, caused the federation to accept them (the "them" referring to themselves, the vulcans)". Here we have only two things: the federation and the vulcans. So how would we say that ? Instinctively, I would write: {yuQjIjDI'vI'vaD vulqanganpu' lajmoH vulqanganpu'} But, my problem is, that the {vulqanganpu'} which precedes and follows the {lajmoH} is the same, i.e. it refers to the same people. As I understand it, the "they-them" zero-prefix, is to be used only when the "they" is other than the "them". So, at the above example, we can't say {vulqanganpu' lajmoH vulqanganpu'}. So, should we say instead the following ? {yuQjIjDI'vI'vaD laj'eghmoH vulqanganpu'} But this approach perhaps produces the meaning "the vulcans caused themselves to accept themselves, for the federation". Can someone, who knows what's going on here, shed some light on this ? ~ nI'ghma