SuStel:
But I can tell you that -lu' does not mean "someone does something to someone." It means "someone or something unspecified or abstract does something." Maybe it's done to something, maybe not.
This confuses me greatly; I read again section 4.2.5. of tkd, and yes the first thing it says is "This suffix is used to indicate that the subject is unknown, indefinite, and/or general". On the other hand though, immediately it continues by saying: "Since the subject is always the same (that is, it is always unstated), the pronominal prefixes (section 4.1.1) are used in a different way". And proceeds by giving examples of the kind "someone/something does something to someone/something". Even the example {Soplu'} is given as "it is eaten". Of course it could be also taken as "someone eats it"; but, how can someone write {Soplu'} in order to say "someone eats (period)" ? Perhaps you will answer by saying "even if you say someone eats (period), then again *that* someone is eating something so we essentially say the same thing". ok.. perhaps I can see your point; but my problem is that the tkd does not have a single example like {yItlu'} for "someone is walking", or {neplu'} for "someone is lying" etc. So, how can we accept such a usage of {-lu'} ? SuStel:
The difference is that vay' indicates a definite "someone," while -lu' might be used when that someone is more abstract
I can't understand this either; how is {lu'} abstract and {vay'} definite ? Both mean someone. Someone unknown/unspecified. I can't see any difference between them. qunnoq On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 6:55 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 9/19/2016 11:38 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
It always pisses me off, to read canon sentences which make no sense ;
matlhHa'lu'chugh vaj Doghlu' 'e' yaymeH molor
the way I understand the use of the suffix {-lu'}, and the way we have discussed it here so many months, it is used to mean that "someone does something to someone" ; not that "someone does something period". For the latter purpose we use {vay'}; not {-lu'}.
I don't happen to have paq'batlh handy, so I can't tell you what the actual English version says, and I don't know what yaymeH means.
But I can tell you that -lu' does not mean "someone does something to someone." It means "someone or something unspecified or abstract does something." Maybe it's done to something, maybe not.
matlhHa'lu'chugh if someone unspecified is disloyal
Doghlu' someone unspecified is foolish
If I want to say "someone confuses me" I will say {vImISmoHlu'}, and if I want to say "someone is confused" I will write {mIS vay'}. I can't write {mISlu'} meaning that "someone is confused".
Sure you can. The difference is that vay' indicates a definite "someone," while -lu' might be used when that someone is more abstract (though it doesn't necessarily mean that).
At the aforementioned jay' sentence we obviously have a meaning which goes something like "if someone is disloyal then someone is foolish..", and in order to describe this intended meaning we see the words {matlhHa'lu'chugh} and {Doghlu'} respectively.
Are we serious ?
HIja'
qorDu' SaHlu'chugh 'ej matlhlu'chugh vaj wa' tlhIngan ghob potlhqu'
The {qorDu' SaHlu'chugh} is correct. But when it comes to the {matlhlu'chugh} then again things make no sense. If the {matlhlu'chugh} is used on its own in order to say "if someone is loyal", then it is wrong. And if the {matlhlu'chugh} refers to the {qorDu'}, then again we have the meaning "if someone cares for his family, and if someone is loyal his family.."
qorDu' SaHlu'chugh 'ej matlhlu'chugh if one cares about family and if one is loyal
And as if all these weren't enough, when we read past the {vaj} the sentence takes the meaning "then one (or one's) very important klingon virtue" and then period. ?!?!?!
The SkyBox cards have the most errors of all of Okrand's Klingon. He did them pretty early on. For your own sanity, just accept this.
And I will ask again.. Are we serious ? These are the kind of canon sentences which are supposed to help people understand proper klingon ?
The SkyBox cards never had the goal of helping people understand proper Klingon. They were made for Star Trek fans.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
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