Yep. I’ve been away from this too long. Gotten flabby. Need more exercise...
On Sep 16, 2021, at 10:36 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 9/16/2021 10:12 AM, Will Martin wrote:
Interesting.
I was seeing {QapDI’} functioning as a time stamp, and as such, like the adverbial, it was one of those things at the beginning of the main clause. The precise sequence isn’t strictly defined. I haven’t noticed examples of other stuff, like time stamps, coming before adverbials, so I was expecting the adverbial to start the sequence, then the time stamp, then the main clause, with everything at the start of the sentence (adverbial and time stamp) applying to the main clause. Well, remember that "time stamp" is not something explicitly defined for us. Okrand discusses "time elements" in section 6.7 in the Addendum, but he seems to be talking about noun phrases that refer to times, not every phrase that refers to a time.
It's perfectly clear that you can have expressions of time in places other than the beginning. cha yIbaH, qara'DI' Fire the torpedoes at my command! Subordinate clauses are allowed to follow independent clauses, even when they express times. If when I see you is not time-like enough for you, I could also say cha yIbaH, wa'logh Qoylu'pu'DI' Fire the torpedoes at one o'clock!
Actual time elements of the kind described in TKD are apparently also part of the clause to which they are attached, as they "precede the adverbial."
In theory, and for the moment ignoring copulas, comparatives, and superlatives, the complete clause structure of Klingon appears to be:
<time elements> <adverbials and syntactic noun phrases> <object> <verb> <subject>
When dealing with multiple independent, purpose, or subordinate clauses, you apparently shove complete clauses next to each other; you don't splice clauses inside other clauses.
This is not a rule that Okrand has stated; it appears to be the case based on canon. Some people are less strict about it than others. Qa'yIn, for instance, likes to splice in parenthetical phrases. He might write something like DaHjaj, jISoptaHvIS, vIghro' vIyach. What he means is to combine the independent clause DaHjaj vIghro' vIyach Today I pet a cat and jISoptaHvIS while I was eating. Personally, I would resist splicing clauses like this, and I would move the subordinate clause to the end: DaHjaj vIgho' vIyach, jISoptaHvIS. But we have no information on what Klingons would have to say about splices like this, other than a general lack of it.
So, if {ghaytanHa’ QapDI’} is a dependent clause… “Unlikely, when he wins” becomes the time stamp for {SuvtaH}.
And I become confused. It sounds more like “Unlikely, when he wins, he continues fighting.” So, he probably doesn’t continue fighting when he wins. So, I guess he quits fighting when he wins, right? You're still doing the parenthetical insertion in your English thinking, applying the unlikely to the he continues fighting instead of the he wins.
I don’t really see that as “When he unlikely wins…” and even less as “When he is unlikely to win…” Sorry. I just don’t see that. I could chop it up in a word salad and toss it into the air and pick out that meaning, if I really, really wanted to, but I can’t see it simply meaning that.
Let’s drop the {-Ha’} just to make it simpler.
{ghaytan QapDI’} “Likely, when he wins…” is not the same as “When he likely wins…” and I’m pretty sure the the former is the more typical interpretation.
nom Sop He eats quickly. nom SopDI' He eats quickly, and when that happens...
ghaytan Qap He is likely to win. ghaytan QapDI' He is likely to win, and when that happens...
Adding -DI' just means and when the sentence that I'm attached to happens...
You just have to step away from the way English phrases things and see the meaning only in the Klingon that appears.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org