[tlhIngan Hol] wishlist for TKD 3ed

Tue Apr 25 14:31:00 PDT 2023

Four things:
1. Glory to you and your house!
2. Appendix should have a list of adverbs for quick glancing through.
I find myself using http://klingon.wiki/En/Adverbial for reference.
3. On Example phrases. I'd love to have a lengthy answer to "chay'
vaS'a'Daq majaH'a'?" (this is not the joke; no -laH or bugs here cf. Power
Klingon) This comes with a side order of "words about traffic". Example
answer: "The Great Hall is three blocks NW of here. Head down this street,
turn left on the second intersection. At the pedestrian roundabout, take
the second exit and stay in the left lane. You'll get there in 10 minutes."
(I've never actually been to Qo'noS so I don't know if traffic is anything
like that)
4. On Ship operations. I suppose some regular phrases can be gleaned from
let's play videos where trekkies play Bridge Crew VR or Artemis Spaceship
Bridge Simulator. I myself will watch few and see what pops up repeatedly.

For the sales pitch you'll do well to remember that Klingonists will likely
buy a copy for use and one or more for the shelf.

Qapla' batlh je!

On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 2:00 PM De'vID via tlhIngan-Hol <
tlhingan-hol at lists.kli.org> wrote:

>
> First of all, I want to emphasise that I am NOT promising anything. Quite
> possibly, nothing will come out of this. I want to set proper expectations
> and not get anyone's hopes up.
>
> Again: NO PROMISES. With that said...
>
> While working on the 3rd edition of the paq'batlh, I had gathered a huge
> amount of information about new revelations about the grammar and
> vocabulary of Klingon which I'd edited into notes organised by the same
> system as used in TKD. I'd also put in comments about how things had been
> used by Dr. Okrand in the movies and SkyBox cards, a few translations he'd
> done for Star Trek authors, things done by others in the Netflix dialogues
> and subtitles, writings by skilled Klingon speakers such as blog posts,
> etc., in areas where Dr. Okrand had left things vague or underspecified in
> TKD, but where common usage patterns (if not a consensus) had developed.
> Dr. Okrand has indicated that, where possible, he doesn't want to reveal
> anything which would contradict how people have already been using the
> language (except for clear errors). And, of course, I have been keeping
> track of all updates to the vocabulary through the {boQwI'} database. I
> basically had a private copy of TKD updated with all the new grammar and
> vocabulary and usage notes, which I'd shared with Dr. Okrand and was
> tremendously helpful in getting the paq'batlh published.
>
> When he saw it, he suggested we turn it into a new official edition of
> TKD. At the time, the paq'batlh project was ballooning and it seemed to
> just keep getting bigger and bigger, so we put the idea aside. In the last
> few weeks, I've edited my notes into a form that looks reasonably like a
> book draft. Previously, it just had bullet points, disconnected examples,
> and references to HolQeD or the mailing list or other sources peppered
> throughout. I've edited the bullet points into paragraphs, edited the
> examples to build on each other throughout where possible, and included the
> information from the sources in the body of the book itself (except some
> places where it says "For more info, see KGT/TKW / listen to CK/PK" as I
> didn't want to repeat the info or examples from there). Where usage
> patterns had developed independent of Dr. Okrand's input, I've put in
> placeholders like "A majority of speakers use this construction or use this
> word this way, while a minor does this other thing." Dr. Okrand will be
> going through everything and we'll be revising things together.
>
> Already, this project is clearly going to be bigger in scope than editing
> the paq'batlh 3rd edition. The process for that started in 2019, and it
> wasn't published until 2022. Depending on my and Dr. Okrand's schedules,
> it's likely a 3rd edition of TKD will take even longer than that. And maybe
> it'll end up being too much work and won't ever be completed. (Dr. Okrand
> is officially retired, and even though he seems to enjoy discussions about
> Klingon, I also don't want to pester him too much.) So, again, I'm not
> promising anything.
>
> With all that said, it's still a very rough draft, and we have no official
> go-ahead from the publisher to do anything. We're putting together a book
> proposal for Pocket Books ( > Simon & Schuster > CBS), which, of course,
> might even just be rejected.
>
> However, in the meantime, I'd like to be optimistic and just pretend
> that the book proposal will be approved, and solicit everyone's input so we
> can continue to make progress on the draft, similar to what we'd done with
> paq'batlh.
>
> Errors:
> - I am fairly certain that I've covered all the typos and errors in TKD.
> However, have other people compiled their own lists? It would be good to be
> able to double-check.
>
> Grammar:
> - Again, I've gone through Dr. Okrand's interviews in HolQeD, info
> revealed in the mailing list from the qep'a'mey and books authored by
> others, and the booklets from the Saarbrücken qepHom'a'. So I think I've
> got everything (in fact, we'll have to make editorial decisions to cut some
> things, e.g., the section on comparisons is way too long right now,
> compared to other points of grammar; and we can't possibly explain how
> every verb is used grammatically). But are there any particular sticky
> points of grammar that you believe need to be clarified? For example, those
> of you who deal often with beginners (e.g., the people who run Duolingo or
> various qepHommey), are there particular points which beginners are
> frequently confused about and could be better explained?
>
> Vocabulary:
> - What Dr. Okrand and I are looking for specifically are gaps in the
> vocabulary relevant to Star Trek. The original TKD was intended to cover
> vocabulary needed to say anything said by a Klingon up to Star Trek III.
> The second edition's addendum added a few things from Star Trek VI and the
> early seasons of TNG. KGT added some more things from TNG and DS9 as well.
> What we would like for the new edition of TKD is to be able to cover
> anything said by any Klingon character, or anything for which there should
> be a Klingon term, up to the new shows. This includes words made up by Star
> Trek writers which haven't been given a backfit into Okrandian orthography
> (e.g., things like "gorch" and "kajunpakt" before Dr. Okrand confirmed
> them).
>
> Neither Dr. Okrand nor I have kept up with the new Star Trek shows, so
> it's likely we might be missing things in this area. Please supply the
> context for the needed vocabulary (e.g., series and episode, line of
> dialogue and surrounding dialogue).
>
> Examples:
> - Again, the original TKD had examples mostly either from Star Trek III,
> or constructed from vocabulary made up for that movie. New revelations of
> grammar rules used examples relevant to Star Trek (e.g., how to express
> length, using a painstik as an example), but it would be nice if the
> example sentences are things which were actually (or could potentially have
> been) spoken by Klingon characters in real situations from the shows and
> movies. I've edited some examples of Klingon dialogues from the recent
> movies and Discovery into the text. If anyone has any favourite quotes from
> Worf or L'Rell or another Klingon character which illustrates a grammar
> point or concept nicely, let me know.
>
> (Also, we haven't figured out how Maltz and/or Dr. Okrand learned about
> spoken Klingon dialogue which happened in alternate timelines, or after
> Maltz's capture in contexts he shouldn't have access to. Perhaps the
> Temporal Mechanics Department was involved. Truly, temporal mechanics gives
> one a headache!)
>
> Useful expressions:
> - The original "useful expressions" from TKD were mostly intended to be
> humorous. Dr. Okrand didn't originally anticipate that people would
> actually memorise the lines and use them. For the new edition, I think we
> will have a useful expressions chapter with multiple sections, for
> different contexts.
>
> For example, the first section would probably be beginner conversational
> phrases. I know that a list like that has been used very successfully at
> events like the qepHom'a'. (It would be phrases like "What's this?", "How
> do you say [blank] in Klingon?", "My name is [blank]", and so on; the kind
> of sentence beginners need to say to get started.) Maybe touristy phrases
> (like those found in CK and PK) can be here as well, or in a separate
> section.
>
> Another section is probably going to be ship operations. We already have
> the vocabulary and grammar to say almost anything in this regard. But, for
> example, it would be good to have a ready list of things commonly said
> while operating a Klingon ship, like "Take your stations!" (so someone
> didn't need to invent {Delaq Do'}). Let me know if you think of anything
> that is commonly said on a starship that we don't have a way to say yet.
> Does anyone play a Klingon in STO or any other game where they roleplay as
> Klingon characters? What are some common things you might say?
>
> I'll take suggestions for other contexts/sections, or any phrases which
> might be useful to have in TKD. In particular, think about the kinds of
> things that Star Trek writers might be liable to make up, if they can't
> find something right away by looking in the list of expressions in TKD.
>
>
> Once again, I will note that I am making NO PROMISES about this project. I
> have committed some time (a few hours per week here and there, like with
> the paq'batlh) to working on it, and Dr. Okrand has agreed to spend some
> time on it as well (but he is retired and doesn't necessarily have a lot of
> time for this), so I'm just going to do what I can to see how far I can
> push it. Any help that would make things easier for Dr. Okrand and myself
> would be very much appreciated.
>
> Qapla'!
>
> --
> De'vID
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> tlhIngan-Hol at lists.kli.org
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>
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