[tlhIngan Hol] {mej} with and without {-vo'}
Iikka Hauhio
fergusq at protonmail.com
Thu May 26 08:07:36 PDT 2022
SuStel:
> And by the way, the gloss ofghoSalso includes "go away from." I have no doubt that you could say things likebIQtIqvo' vIghoSI go away from the river.ghoScan impart an ablative meaning to its object instead of a locative meaning, so we should not be surprised if adding the ablative suffix to the object has no effect on the sentence besides being redundant.
Is there evidence that ghoS can add the ablative meaning to its object? ghoS is used tens of times in canon and every time its object doesn't have any type-5 suffix it means "go (to)".
When ghoS is used to mean "go away from", it has -vo':
> chaH neH wovmoHlu'be'
> chaH 'emvo' ghoS
> SuvwI'pu' mangghomyoH
>
> The sun shone not on them only,
> Behind them came
> An army of brave warriors.
>
> (paq'batlh)
Based on the evidence we have I don't think we can say that a nominative object could have an ablative meaning. I think the definition just means that in some contexts (ie. when -vo' is used), the verb can be translated with "go away from".
Iikka "fergusq" Hauhio
------- Original Message -------
On Wednesday, May 25th, 2022 at 17.41, SuStel <sustel at trimboli.name> wrote:
> On 5/25/2022 10:18 AM, Will Martin wrote:
>
>> I noticed the same thing. It is strange to have the prefix suggest an object that has a Type 5 suffix (except {-‘e’} because, hey, {-'e’} is soooo exceptional). It’s more typical to say {bIQtIqDaq jIghoS} or {bIQtIq vIghoS} than {bIQtIqDaq vIghoS}.
>
> The object of the verb ghoS is the course being followed, possibly a course identified by its destination. That is, its object is already locative anyway, so there is no reason one couldn't add a -Daq to it. As TKD says, doing this is a little redundant, but not wrong. When a verb makes its object locative, adding the locative suffix doesn't change anything at all about the sentence.
>
> And by the way, the gloss of ghoS also includes "go away from." I have no doubt that you could say things like bIQtIqvo' vIghoS I go away from the river. ghoS can impart an ablative meaning to its object instead of a locative meaning, so we should not be surprised if adding the ablative suffix to the object has no effect on the sentence besides being redundant.
>
> This idea that objects should never have type 5 suffixes on them except for -'e' because it's exceptional and except for -Daq on certain verbs because the verbs are exceptional is a kludge made up by us, not Okrand. A more accurate "rule" would be that type 5 noun suffixes can go on any subject or object provided the verb supports locative/ablative/benefactive/causative/focus nouns in those positions. The role of focus is universal. A bunch of verbs support a locative object. A couple appear to support an ablative object. We know of none that support benefactive or causative objects or or any sort of subject other than a focus noun.
>
> The rule is not that subjects and objects cannot take type 5 suffixes; the rule is that nouns that aren't subject or objects come before the object and usually have type 5 suffixes. (Examples of nouns that aren't subject or object and don't have type 5 suffixes are time expressions.) There is no prohibition on putting type 5'd nouns on subjects or objects, and we're explicitly given instances where -Daq (and now -vo') go on objects.
>
>> Sure, you can do it. It’s just weird, even if Okrand does it.
>
> Only if you presume a rule that TKD doesn't actually state. This is one of those "we made ourselves think this way" things.
>
>> One might expect a parallel between the use of {-Daq} with its special verbs and {-vo’} with its special verbs.
>
> The verbs are only special in that their objects are locations. You ghoS a location because ghoS is all about acting upon a location, so it's really not surprising when you put the location marker on the location you ghoS.
>
> --
> SuStel
> http://trimboli.name
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