[tlhIngan Hol] using {ngan} as a suffix {ngan} as the suffix {-ngan}

[De'vID]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 at 01:57, Iikka Hauhio <fergusq at protonmail.com> wrote:

> De'vID:
>
> I also think, as a result of this conflation, that you're misreading the
> sentence ("legitimate" in the sense that it would be found in a
> dictionary). The unwritten implication here is "... found in a dictionary
> (as one word written without spaces)". You wrote that he contradicts
> himself by including "compound nouns with spaces", but it's not a
> contradiction because compound nouns are written without spaces in his
> convention. The dictionary contains both compound nouns (without spaces)
> *and* noun-noun constructions (with spaces), but by the classification
> described in TKD, they are different classes of noun constructs.
>
>
> How I read it is that there are "combinations of nouns". If a combination
> is a "legitimate compound noun", it works as discussed in TKD section 2.
> Then if a combination is *not* a legitimate compound noun, it works like
> a noun-noun construct discussed in section 3.4. This would mean that
> noun-noun constructs are not "legitimate". But I agree that it can be read
> in the way you suggest.
>
> But sections 2 and 3.4 describe very similar constructs (they are both
> quite vague and section 3.4 doesn't really explain the genitive behavior of
> the noun-noun construct). What is the difference between a "compound noun"
> and a "noun-noun construction"? The only difference I see is that one has
> spaces and the other has not.
>

The difference between compound nouns and noun-noun constructions isn't
explained clearly in TKD, so what I write is just speculation, but I think
the known examples do point to a difference.

Compound nouns:
- an "earthworm" is not merely a worm that lives in the earth, but a
specific kind of "earth worm".
- an {'Iwghargh} is like "earthworm" in being a specific kind of worm. I
guess you could dip or raise any kind of worm in blood, and it would be
{'Iw ghargh} but not {'Iwghargh}.
- a "password" is not a "pass word", and indeed nowadays is usually not a
word but a combination of letters, numbers, and punctuation.
- a {jolpa'} isn't just a "transporter beam room" (any room with a
transporter beam), but a room with a very specific purpose and layout.
- a {tIjwI'ghom} isn't just any group of random people who go aboard
a ship, but a specific team configuration with a set mission.
- a {qulHuD} isn't just a "fire mountain", but specifically a volcano.
- a {may'Duj} is not just any "battle ship", but a specific type or class
known as a "battle cruiser". I don't know why {DIvI'may'Duj} is a compound,
but possibly it refers to a specific make of "Federation battle cruiser"
and not to any "battle cruiser" belonging to the Federation, but that would
be a guess.
- {yuQjIjDIvI'} is not any "federation of cooperative planets", but *the*
United Federation of Planets.
- {wabDo loS} means "Mach 4", whereas {wab Do loS} would mean "speed of
sound number 4" (i.e., "speed number 4, of sound").
- a {ropyaH} isn't just a "disease duty station", it's an infirmary, a
specific duty station dealing with the sick and injured.

Noun-noun constructions:
- {nuH pegh} "weapon's secret", "secret of the weapon"
- {jaghpu' yuQmey} "enemies' planets"
- {puqwI' qamDu'} "my child's feet"
- {nagh Dung[Daq]} "above the rock"
- {ropyaH qach} "infirmary building" = "hospital"
- {tuq Degh} "House symbol" = "family crest"
- {wab Do} "speed of sound"

In each of these noun-noun constructions, the meaning is completely obvious
from the components, in a way that the meaning of compound nouns are not. A
{tuq Degh} is the "symbol" of a "House", and nothing more or other than
that. It's given the translation "family crest" in the dictionary because
that's just a more natural English expression for the concept, but its
meaning is clear from the components alone. A *{tuqDegh} would imply, to
me, not just a family crest, but perhaps family crests of a specific format
(like in heraldry). {wab Do} is the "speed of sound". That's obvious from
the components. But {wabDo} is the "Mach number", a specific concept in
fluid dynamics which isn't specified by "sound" and "speed" alone.

{ropyaH qach} is an even more interesting example, because {ropyaH} is a
compound noun, participating in a noun-noun construction. The meaning of
{ropyaH} is not "duty station of disease". Its meaning is not determined by
the components alone. If I saw {rop yaH} separated with a space, I might
*guess* that it refers to an infirmary, but it isn't the only possibility.
But a "hospital" is pretty much just an infirmary-building, a {ropyaH
qach}.

As for why it's {'Iw HIq} and not {'IwHIq}, the names of some other known
alcoholic drinks are also noun-noun constructions with {HIq}, e.g.,
{cha'vatlh ben HIq}, {pubtaHbogh ghargh HIq}, and {romuluS HIq}, and so I
would guess that {HIq} is not productive to form compound nouns for some
reason. ({HIq qIj}, with an adjectival verb, is also written with a space
and not as *{HIqqIj}.)

As everyone has already agreed, Okrand isn't always consistent. But he's
consistent enough that there are patterns that we can follow. And one of
those patterns is that compound nouns (written without a space) generally
represent concepts which are not derivable from their component parts
alone, whereas noun-noun constructions (written with spaces) generally
represent concepts which are the sum of their parts and no more.

-- 
De'vID
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