[tlhIngan Hol] thoughts on the perfective {-pu'}

[Will Martin]

I don’t think we should assume that {jIj} isn’t a pair of homophones, one of which can be used adjectivally. Additionally, we don’t know for sure what the object of {jIj} would be, or if it can take objects when used as a non-adjectival verb. I can cooperate during a specific event without generally being cooperative. If I cooperate WITH someone, that someone might be an object, or maybe they’d need {-vaD}. It can be effectively (dare I use the word) intransitive, yet still be not adjectival, like {Qong}. You don’t sleep something, but when you are sleeping, you are not a sleep person.

My vote, until we get something more specific about this, is that {jIj} is actually two different words that sound alike and have similar meanings, just like in English you can cooperate or be cooperative. You can’t cooperative, and you can’t be cooperate. In English, “cooperate” and “cooperative” are different words, sound different, but they share etymological roots. In Klingon, perhaps they simply sound alike, but are used differently.

pItlh

charghwI’ ‘utlh
(ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)




> On Apr 5, 2022, at 10:23 AM, Iikka Hauhio <fergusq at protonmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I don't automatically take every gloss that starts with be as proving a quality verb, so I'm not convinced jIj is one.
> ​
> jIj is used in yuQjIjDIvI' etc. where it seems to be used adjectivally (Union of cooperative planets). As it's a compound we cannot be sure that its components can be used individually, but it's some evidence for jIj being a quality verb.
> 
> It should be noted that the "be cooperative" meaning was given after the "cooperate" meaning. I don't see why to publish this new gloss unless the reason was to clarify that jIj indeed can be used as a quality verb.
> 
> As for using perfective with the quality verbs, I don't see why they'd work any differently than other intransitive verbs. Why would jIQongpu' "I was asleep" be allowed, but jIQuppu' "I was young" not? Just as sleeping is a completed event, being young is also a completed event. I was young, I can look that as a completed whole.
> 
> Iikka "fergusq" Hauhio
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Tuesday, April 5th, 2022 at 16.03, SuStel <sustel at trimboli.name> wrote:
> 
>> On 4/5/2022 8:16 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
>>> 
>>> But there's still something I'm wondering. When would it be appropriate for us to put the {-pu'} on a quality verb? Because -if my understanding is correct- I can't think of an occasion when something like this would be needed. So could you write an example where the {-pu'} would be necessary on a quality verb?
>> I don't think it's a very sensible thing to do, but it might be possible. An analogy would be using the English word know in the present progressive tense. Normally, one wouldn't say I am knowing it, but there might be special circumstances where you would say it. Aha! Now I'm learning it and I'm knowing it! Someone might say something like this to deliberately make the learning and knowing parallel by forcing both into the same tense. You might do something similar with Klingon perfective.
>> 
>> Basically, saying things like jIQuchpu' and SuDalpu' would sound like I happied and You boringed.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Or perhaps does voragh know of a Ca'Non example where we have the {-pu'} on a quality/stative verb?
>> The only possibility I'm aware of is woQ luSuqmeH jIjpu' chaH romuluSngan'e' je from Skybox S26, but this is a bad data point, because jIj was originally glossed as cooperate and only got the further gloss of be cooperative after this card was published. I don't automatically take every gloss that starts with be as proving a quality verb, so I'm not convinced jIj is one.
>> 
>> --
>> SuStel
>> http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>
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