[tlhIngan Hol] perfective {-pu'} using/combining aspect with no aspect

[Will Martin]

Note: The New Moon does not come above the horizon at night. That’s why you can’t see it. It comes above the horizon during the day. That’s what makes it a New Moon.

Maybe Okrand was as confused about this as you are.

A Full Moon rises as the Sun sets. A New Moon rises and sets with the Sun.

pItlh

charghwI’ ‘utlh
(ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)




> On Apr 7, 2022, at 10:58 AM, Iikka Hauhio <fergusq at protonmail.com> wrote:
> 
> SuStel:
> 
> The paq'batlh sentence is problematical. chu'DI' maS 'ej qaStaHvIS ram when the moon is new and during the night. The English original is on the night of the new moon. What made Okrand decide to mix -DI' and -vIS here? The moon is (presumably) new all night, so it's not like it's describing the moon becoming new during the night. I return to wondering whether Okrand was letting his English influence his choice of Klingon grammar: in English you might say during a night when the moon was new, but you'd be less likely to say during a night while the moon was new.
> ​
> Maybe Okrand tried to get the "as soon as" interpretation: as soon as the moon is new, during the night. There is no single point of time when the moon becomes new, it just happens that one night when the moon comes above the horizon, it's new, so -choH might be a little odd here. Using -taHvIS wouldn't get the "as soon as" interpretation. Though the English translation doesn't have the "as soon as" part, so I'm not sure it's what Okrand intended.
> 
> The words "when" and "while" confuse me a bit as Finnish doesn't have them, they are both translated with the same word "kun".
> 
> Iikka "fergusq" Hauhio
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Thursday, April 7th, 2022 at 17.21, SuStel <sustel at trimboli.name> wrote:
> 
>> On 4/7/2022 10:07 AM, Iikka Hauhio wrote:
>>> Through my corpus search I found these examples:
>>> 
>>> paq'batlh:
>>> chu'DI' maS 'ej qaStaHvIS ram
>>> nuHmeyDaj may'luchDaj nIv je
>>> yIr qeylIS
>>> ​
>>> TKW:
>>> wa' Dol nIvDaq matay'DI' maQap.
>>> ​
>>> PK:
>>> matay'DI', vIHtaHbogh bIQ rur mu'qaDmey.
>>> DopDaq qul yIchenmoH QobDI' ghu'.
>> Good, then it's not impossible. It is sometimes difficult for me to decide when to use -DI' and when to use -vIS, and I think the two senses of English when causes that: when can mean "as soon as," but it can also mean "while." It might confuse Okrand as well, or he may have had a distinct interpretation in mind when he chose -DI' for these verbs.
>> 
>> What is, for instance, the difference between DopDaq qul yIchenmoH QobDI' ghu' set fire on the side when there is danger and DopDaq qul yIchenmoH QobtaHvIS ghu' set fire on the side while there is danger? Maybe it's one of presupposition? The first suggests that, in the event of danger, one should set fire on the side. The second presupposes the presence of danger, and one should set fire on the side during that danger. This is speculation.
>> 
>> The paq'batlh sentence is problematical. chu'DI' maS 'ej qaStaHvIS ram when the moon is new and during the night. The English original is on the night of the new moon. What made Okrand decide to mix -DI' and -vIS here? The moon is (presumably) new all night, so it's not like it's describing the moon becoming new during the night. I return to wondering whether Okrand was letting his English influence his choice of Klingon grammar: in English you might say during a night when the moon was new, but you'd be less likely to say during a night while the moon was new.
>> 
>> --
>> SuStel
>> http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>
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