[tlhIngan Hol] using {chol}

SuStel sustel at trimboli.name
Mon Jun 17 06:21:06 PDT 2019


On 6/17/2019 4:39 AM, Rhona Fenwick wrote:
>
> taH:
>
> > The principle is this: *-Daq* tells you the location at which the 
> verb occurs,
>
> > not, in this case, the destination of the action. When we think of 
> coming
>
> > closer, we tend to think in terms of being the moving entity heading
>
> > toward the destination. I'm suggesting that we may have that backwards:
>
> > we should think in terms of being the stationary entity, watching the
>
> > moving entity coming closer to us.
>
>
> When you say "we should think...", are you pondering, or prescribing?


I am describing "the principle by which I think it works."


> The rest of your perspective makes good internal sense. I can't fault 
> it. (On the other hand, I can't see there are fewer assumptions being 
> made whether one treats *chol* like *Sum*, or like *ghoS*.)


*ghoS* works the way it does because it is one of those verbs described 
in TKD that imparts an inherently locative sense to its object. We have 
no evidence that *chol* is one of those verbs, and the given translation 
does not suggest an object. My only assumption is that a verb is not an 
inherently locative verb unless we have a reason to think that it is.


> jatlhpu' charghwI', jatlh:
> > SuStel’s suggestion would work for either {Sum} or {ghoS}. Your
> > suggestion works with {ghoS}, but not {Sum}.
>
> I agree my suggestion doesn't work with *Sum* (though the nature of 
> the verb precludes that anyway), but with respect, I'm not sure 
> SuStel's suggestion does quite work for *ghoS* either, because of the 
> dual manner in which X-*Daq ghoS *Y works depending on whether X-*Daq* 
> triggers object-agreement. An objectless usage (like the one SuStel 
> suggests for *yuQDaq chol Duj*) can only ever mean "the ship is going 
> _on_ the planet", and not "the ship is going _to_ the planet", when 
> applied to *ghoS*, though the distinction is only overt in the plural: 
> *yuQDaq lughoS Dujmey* "the ships are going to the planet" (-*Daq* 
> destination), *yuQDaq ghoS Dujmey* "the ships are going on the planet" 
> (-*Daq* location).


I'm not sure why everyone is trying to turn my suggestion into a general 
rule or apply it to other verbs. I only suggested something for the verb 
*chol,* and illustrated something similar, but not identical, in the 
verb *Sum.*

-- 
SuStel
http://trimboli.name

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