[tlhIngan Hol] Duran lung DIr

Steven Boozer sboozer at uchicago.edu
Fri Apr 5 07:09:37 PDT 2019


Since I’m referred to in it, here’s Okrand’s complete post for those who haven’t seen it before:

----------------  [[begin]] ----------------
From: Marc Okrand <mokrand at erols.com>
Newsgroups: startrek.klingon
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 00:15:57 -0500
Subject: Re: DIrmey pagh DIrDu'

Steven Boozer wrote ...
>On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Alan Anderson wrote:
>|That said, I prefer {DIrDu'} when talking about multiple skins, especially
>|multiple layers of skin like a shedding snake.
>
>As to the plural, in the discussion of the traditional warrior's tunic
>{yIvbeH} we read, "Accompanying sleeves (tlhaymey) ... were generally
>made of animal pelts (veDDIrmey), skin (DIr), with fur (veD) still
>attached" (KGT p. 58).

Since number is an optional category in Klingon (the plural suffix may be
left off even if the word refers to more than one thing), {DIr} may refer
to "a skin" or "skins" or "skin" as a material or substance.  Likewise for
{veDDIr} "pelt, pelts."

So the problem of which plural suffix to use comes up only when one feels
the need to be very specific.

If I understand Maltz correctly, it works like this:

The general plural suffix {-mey} is not used with body parts (except by
poets, of course).  Thus {DIrmey} "skins"  and {veDDIrmey} "pelts" are not
(or, perhaps better, are no longer) body parts, but rather are materials
from which things (clothing or blankets, for example) may be made.  They've
lost their association with the creatures that originally had them.  (This
is kind of like the distinction in English between "beef," which is eaten,
and "cattle,"  which isn't.)

If there still is that association, that is, if the creatures still have
their skin, or if it's a creature that has multiple skins (maybe layers,
maybe different kinds of skin on different parts of the body), or if the
skin just came off either by natural causes (as with Alan Anderson's
snakes) or by the creatures being, well, skinned, then the body-part plural
suffix {-Du'} may be used: {DIrDu'}.

But {DIr} alone, without a suffix, is heard most often.

----------------  [[end]] ----------------

Note that Okrand was discussing skins, firs and pelts in general, not Durani lizard skins as a snack:

KCD:  "Served dried and thinly sliced. Discovered by a Klingon military unit stranded on Durani I for six months without supplies."

Apparently KCD also mentioned that it is a food item which never uses a plural suffix -- can anyone confirm this?  I never got the game to work on my PC back in the 1990’s – rather like jerky.

Lizard skins sounds like potato skins, which I’ve never heard ordered by number in a restaurant: e.g. “Bring me 13 potato skins, 50 grams of cole slaw, and a diet Coke.”  (Although you could say, “There’s a piece of lizard/potato skin on the floor.  Pick it up!  What am I, your servant?!”)  Hmm… do we have a word for piece or chunk of something other than {‘ay’}?

--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons



From: De'vID
On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 at 07:43, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius at gmx.de<mailto:levinius at gmx.de>> wrote:
Am 04.04.2019 um 23:38 schrieb De'vID:
> If the cook is ordering five pieces of Durani lizard skin from a
> butcher, it would be {vagh Duran lungmey DIr}, not *{vagh Duran lung
> DIrDu'}. I don't think the latter is possible, as {DIr} is being used in
> the sense of a material in this context.  It's like "fur" in English. You don't
> ask for "five furs", you ask for "five pelts".

Okay, that may be correct in this context, but what I suggested is not
wrong either. At least, the latter is not impossible.
In his message in st.k, Okrand wrote:

You should state the source. It's from a message on the startrek.klingon newsgroup:
http://klingonska.org/canon/1998-03-23b-news.txt

----
[...]if the skin just came off either by natural causes [...] or by the
creatures being, well, skinned, then the body-part plural
suffix {-Du'} may be used: {DIrDu'}.

But {DIr} alone, without a suffix, is heard most often.
----

So we are both right.

Actually, that message supports your idea that an order to a butcher would use {DIrDu'}.

--
De'vID
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