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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Since I’m referred to in it, here’s Okrand’s complete post for those who haven’t seen it before:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">---------------- [[begin]] ----------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">From: Marc Okrand <mokrand@erols.com><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Newsgroups: startrek.klingon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 00:15:57 -0500<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Subject: Re: DIrmey pagh DIrDu'<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Steven Boozer wrote ...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">>On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Alan Anderson wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">>|That said, I prefer {DIrDu'} when talking about multiple skins, especially<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">>|multiple layers of skin like a shedding snake.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">>As to the plural, in the discussion of the traditional warrior's tunic<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">>{yIvbeH} we read, "Accompanying sleeves (tlhaymey) ... were generally<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">>made of animal pelts (veDDIrmey), skin (DIr), with fur (veD) still<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">>attached" (KGT p. 58).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Since number is an optional category in Klingon (the plural suffix may be<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">left off even if the word refers to more than one thing), {DIr} may refer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">to "a skin" or "skins" or "skin" as a material or substance. Likewise for<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">{veDDIr} "pelt, pelts."
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">So the problem of which plural suffix to use comes up only when one feels<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">the need to be very specific.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">If I understand Maltz correctly, it works like this:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">The general plural suffix {-mey} is not used with body parts (except by<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">poets, of course). Thus {DIrmey} "skins" and {veDDIrmey} "pelts" are not<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">(or, perhaps better, are no longer) body parts, but rather are materials<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">from which things (clothing or blankets, for example) may be made. They've<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">lost their association with the creatures that originally had them. (This<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">is kind of like the distinction in English between "beef," which is eaten,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">and "cattle," which isn't.)
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">If there still is that association, that is, if the creatures still have<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">their skin, or if it's a creature that has multiple skins (maybe layers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">maybe different kinds of skin on different parts of the body), or if the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">skin just came off either by natural causes (as with Alan Anderson's<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">snakes) or by the creatures being, well, skinned, then the body-part plural<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">suffix {-Du'} may be used: {DIrDu'}.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">But {DIr} alone, without a suffix, is heard most often.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">---------------- [[end]] ----------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Note that Okrand was discussing skins, firs and pelts in general, not Durani lizard skins as a snack:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">KCD: "Served dried and thinly sliced. Discovered by a Klingon military unit stranded on Durani I for six months without supplies."
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Apparently KCD also mentioned that it is a food item which never uses a plural suffix -- can anyone confirm this? I never got the game to work on my PC back
in the 1990’s – rather like jerky. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Lizard skins sounds like potato skins, which I’ve never heard ordered by number in a restaurant: e.g. “Bring me 13 potato skins, 50 grams of cole slaw, and a
diet Coke.” (Although you could say, “There’s a piece of lizard/potato skin on the floor. Pick it up! What am I, your servant?!”) Hmm… do we have a word for piece or chunk of something other than {‘ay’}?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">--<br>
Voragh<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Ca'Non Master of the Klingons</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> De'vID<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:4.0pt">On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 at 07:43, Lieven L. Litaer <<a href="mailto:levinius@gmx.de">levinius@gmx.de</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:4.0pt">Am 04.04.2019 um 23:38 schrieb De'vID:<br>
> If the cook is ordering five pieces of Durani lizard skin from a<br>
> butcher, it would be {vagh Duran lungmey DIr}, not *{vagh Duran lung<br>
> DIrDu'}. I don't think the latter is possible, as {DIr} is being used in<br>
> the sense of a material in this context.<span style="color:#1F497D"> </span>It's like "fur" in English. You don't<br>
> ask for "five furs", you ask for "five pelts".<br>
<br>
Okay, that may be correct in this context, but what I suggested is not<br>
wrong either. At least, the latter is not impossible.<br>
In his message in st.k, Okrand wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:4.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:4.0pt">You should state the source. It's from a message on the startrek.klingon newsgroup:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:4.0pt"><a href="http://klingonska.org/canon/1998-03-23b-news.txt">http://klingonska.org/canon/1998-03-23b-news.txt</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:4.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:4.0pt">----<br>
[...]if the skin just came off either by natural causes [...] or by the<br>
creatures being, well, skinned, then the body-part plural<br>
suffix {-Du'} may be used: {DIrDu'}.<br>
<br>
But {DIr} alone, without a suffix, is heard most often.<br>
----<br>
<br>
So we are both right.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:4.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:4.0pt">Actually, that message supports your idea that an order to a butcher would use {DIrDu'}.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:4.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:4.0pt">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:4.0pt">De'vID<o:p></o:p></p>
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