[tlhIngan Hol] Expressing "all of us"
sustel at trimboli.name
Sun Jan 28 05:47:58 PST 2018
On 1/28/2018 1:09 AM, nIqolay Q wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 10:19 PM, SuStel <sustel at trimboli.name
> <mailto:sustel at trimboli.name>> wrote:
> The fierceness with which people desire a /y'all/ in Klingon
> horrifies me. This is no different. There is no fundamental need
> to express this with a built-in phrase.
> There is a "y'all". It's *tlhIH*. (Now, if someone wanted something
> for "all y'all"...)
There is no /all/ implicit in *tlhIH.* It plural you, but not
necessarily all of you.
> I disagree with the underlying idea here that not fundamentally
> needing a certain phrase or construction means it's not worth being
> ever used or discussed.
Oh nonono, I never said that. I have no problem with discussing the
issue or occasionally needing to make explicit how much of *maH* (or
*tlhIH*) one is talking about; see my subsequent discussion of what it
would look like if you used it. I object to the casual translation of
English /we all/ (or /y'all/) with a set phrase everywhere it appears.
This is what mayqel threatened to do, and I'm pretty sure he's planning
on using it in lieu of /ever/ using a straight *maH.*
> /Assuming/ this were something we wanted to say, I would expect it to
> be *maH Hoch,* not *Hochmaj.* Consider what we discover in KGT with
> area phrases (like *jIH 'em */area behind me,/ not **'emwIj*).
> Why would you expect *maH Hoch* based on that? I admit that *Hochmaj*
> looks unusual, but *Hoch* is a grammatical noun and can presumably
> take noun suffixes. (We know it can take *-Hom*.) The only situation
> we know of where the *maH X* phrasing is explicitly preferred to the
> *Xmaj* phrasing is with area nouns, and *Hoch* is not an area noun.
> (And some area nouns like *'ev*, *chan*, and *tIng* do take possessive
> suffixes, even in *ta' Hol*.)
Because *maH Hoch* appears to derive its meaning from the genitive
noun-noun construction, not from possession. I don't think the area
nouns work with pronouns the way they do because they are an exception
to the rule; I think they work that way because they use a more general
genitive way than possession. *jIH 'em:* it's not /my area behind;/ it's
/the area behind /narrowed down with /me/ as a descriptor. I don't
possess the area.
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