[tlhIngan Hol] Expressing "all of us"

SuStel sustel at trimboli.name
Sun Jan 28 07:21:00 PST 2018


On 1/28/2018 9:51 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
> SuStel:
> > My objection is the same whichever phrase you use.
>
> I'm rather confused.
>
> Reading this thread, I understood the reasons which would raise 
> objections with regards to the use of {maH Hoch}. And in particular, 
> how the {maH Hoch} violates the accord rule.
>
> But I can't understand which rule is violated by {Hoch maH}. Is it 
> ungrammatical or wrong ? And if yes, how ? Reading this thread, I 
> can't understand how its use could be considered wrong.
>
> Don't misunderstand me; I'm not arguing just to argue. I sincerely 
> can't understand how the {Hoch maH} could be considered wrong.

Read my message again. My objection is not to whether *Hoch maH* or *maH 
Hoch* means "we all" or "all of us"; it's whether you can use such a 
phrase wherever a casual speaker of English would say "we all" or "all 
of us." In English, the phrase is often used with no distinction 
whatsoever from "we" or "us." When translating from English, if you're 
translating "we all" or "all of us" with no distinction from "we" or 
"us" to *Hoch maH *or *maH Hoch,* you've just run into my objection. 
You're just copying an English dialect, not speaking genuine Klingon.

I don't know if you'll get the following, since you're not a native 
speaker, but I'll give it a shot. In every dialect of English I've ever 
heard that employs "we all", "you all," or "y'all" in this sense, there 
is a distinction of stress made between a throwaway phrase and an actual 
distinction of number. If one says "WE all," stressing the "we," then 
the "all" is just a dialectical affectation, and has no meaning in the 
sentence; you could just drop it. If one says "we ALL," stressing the 
"all," then the "all" is there to make clear that we are talking about 
ALL of us, not just some of us.

The same obtains with "you all": "YOU all" and "y'all" have no actual 
"all" meaning; "you ALL" is making a distinction between all of you and 
only some of you. There are some dialects of English that have almost 
completely dropped "you," even singular "you," in favor of "y'all"; 
these mean both just "you" and "all of you, not some of you." But 
outside these dialects, this distinction is made with stress.

As for what exactly *Hoch maH* and *maH Hoch* mean: it's not clear. 
*Hoch maH* might be as ungrammatical as /all of the usses./ Or it might 
mean exactly what you think it means. Since there is a noticeable lack 
of canonical examples combining any quantity noun with any pronoun, we 
can't predict what it means, if it means anything at all. Given this 
total lack of information, I have to advise emulating known canon rather 
than constructing a questionable phrase and using it constantly.

-- 
SuStel
http://trimboli.name

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