[tlhIngan Hol] vengDaq, vengmeyDaq je

[SuStel]

On 9/10/2017 6:57 PM, Jeremy Silver wrote:
> On Sunday, 10 September 2017 20:03:30 BST SuStel wrote:
>> On 9/10/2017 8:39 AM, Jeremy Silver wrote:
>>> On Saturday, 9 September 2017 13:52:00 BST SuStel wrote:
>>>> On 9/9/2017 4:31 AM, Jeremy Silver wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, 8 September 2017 23:26:13 BST De'vID wrote:
>>>>>> On 6 September 2017 at 15:15, Jeremy Silver<jp.silver at tiscali.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Still, on a related note, I've been having problems recently trying to
>>>>>>> figure out a reasonable way, with or without {ngIq}, to say "atom by
>>>>>>> atom
>>>>>>> [something happens]" and "cell by cell [something else happens]".
>>>>>> I presume this has to do with this DSC promo?
>>>>>> https://twitter.com/StarTrekNetflix/status/901134702622367748
>>>>>> "Atom by atom, they will silence us. Cell by cell, our souls shall
>>>>>> become theirs."
>>>>> Indeed, for this exercise I think I settled on this version (which
>>>>> omits
>>>>> ngIq) for the whole promo text. Even after re-reading mayqel's thread
>>>>> and
>>>>> this one a few times, I'm/still/  not clear how to use ngIq for my own
>>>>> purposes yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> {nughoStaH chaH.
>>>>> wa' HeySel ghIq latlh HeySel, nutammoH chaH.
>>>>> wa' HanDI' ghIq latlh HanDI', qa'chaj moj qa'maj.
>>>>> tlhIngan maHtaHmeH maghobnIS. potlhchu' meqvam.}
>>>> This doesn't work.*ghIq*  is an adverbial; it attaches to sentences, not
>>>> nouns.
>>> Good point, but I'm not too sure it's the atoms that are doing the
>>> silencing.
>> /They/ are doing the silencing. The atoms are being silenced. What else
>> does /atom by atom, they will silence us/ mean?
>>
>>> So how about this instead?:
>>>
>>> {nughoStaH chaH.
>>> latlh HeySel qa'taHvIS wa' HeySel, nutammoH chaH.
>> /While one atom replaces another atom, they silence us./
>>
>> I have no idea what this means. I also don't like how *latlh* precedes
>> *wa';* you haven't introduced the *wa'* yet that can have a *latlh.*
>>
> Thanks for your further suggestions.
>
> I think that neither of us really know what the original means as we're
> lacking a fair bit of context. But I'm going with the interpretation that the
> "they" which is approaching is the same "they" doing the silencing, and this
> "they" is not atoms or cells. I'll take a wild stab that it's some species,
> say Humans approaching, that will be causing some molecular/cellular
> alteration to change the look of the Klingon species.

My version doesn't say that the cells are doing the silencing. I said 
*ngIq HeySelmaj tammoH*/they silence our atoms one by one. /I didn't 
need to define who /they/ are; I just made the atoms the object of the 
sentence.


> I could swap the clauses to {wa' HeySel qa'taHvIS latlh HeySel}, and with this
> verb it could well work. But as I understand it, Klingon sentences are OVS,
> and {wa' HeySel} is the subject, is it not?

Sure, and in Klingon subjects come last. But you're thinking in English. 
In English, you'd say /while one atom replaces another atom./ You 
wouldn't say /while another atom replaces one atom,/ because you haven't 
established /another what?/ The same ordering happens in Klingon, only 
this time you mention the object first.


>
>>> latlh HanDI' qa'taHvIS wa' HanDI', qa'chaj moj qa'maj.
>> /While one cell replaces another cell, our spirits become their spirits./
>>
>> If this is supposed to suggest an agency by which our spirits become
>> their spirits, it fails to do so. It only suggests simultaneity. One
>> thing happens at the same time as another; one thing does not happen by
>> means of the other.
> As I interpret the original phrase, I believe simultaneity is all I need to
> suggest. We have nothing in the original, that I can tell, that suggests
> agency specific to the atoms or cells. It seems to be just events/mutation/
> disease happening, but I am frequently wrong.

I didn't suggest the cells have agency, and that was my point. Something 
/else/ has agency: the /they,/ whoever /they/ are. But in my version, 
/they/ are explicitly acting upon the atoms.

-- 
SuStel
http://trimboli.name

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