[tlhIngan Hol] qepHom grammar questions

[SuStel]

On 10/4/2017 12:33 PM, nIqolay Q wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 12:14 PM, SuStel <sustel at trimboli.name 
> <mailto:sustel at trimboli.name>> wrote:
>
>     I don't think you can use it for any application of *-vaD,* only
>     for when *-vaD* indicates an indirect object. In your *qaHoHqang*
>     example, for instance, *SoH* is not an indirect object: *SoH*
>     benefits from the action, but the action does not result in
>     something actually given to *SoH.*
>
> Out of the three verbs I can think of that have been used with the 
> prefix trick -- *nob*, *'ang*, and *jatlh* -- only the first involves 
> actually giving someone something. In the case of *tIqwIj Sa'angnIS* 
> or *tlhIngan Hol qajatlh*, *tlhIH* or *SoH* are benefiting from the 
> action but aren't really getting anything out of it physically.

I didn't say anything about /physically./ The target of the prefix is 
someone who receives the outcome of the action. *Sa'ang:*//you receive 
the outcome of my showing, you see something; *qajatlh:* you receive the 
outcome of my speaking, you hear something. But with *muqab*, I don't 
receive the outcome of its being bad. Nothing actually happens to me.


> (Also, is the assumed distinction between meanings of *-vaD* a 
> carryover from the ways that suffix is translated into English? Do 
> Klingon grammarians make a distinction between the *jIHvaD* in *jiHvaD 
> taj Danobpu'* and in *jIHvaD qab tera'ngan Soj 'Iq*?)

I don't think so. I think Okrand was looking for a way to express 
"indirect object," and saw that *-vaD* often did that job, because one 
sort of beneficiary is an indirect object. So he gives it this role in 
TKD Addendum 6.8. "The indirect object may be considered the 
beneficiary," not that the beneficiary may be considered the indirect 
object.

And the prefix trick works with indirect objects, not beneficiaries.

You can look at it this (inexact) way: Klingon has the distinct semantic 
roles of "indirect object" and "benefactive," and both are marked with 
the "beneficiary" suffix, *-vaD.*

-- 
SuStel
http://trimboli.name

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