[tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!

Wed Mar 22 12:55:58 PDT 2017

== WORD REQUEST MESSAGE ==

- be submerged [in] (verb)

Examples of things I'd like to be able to say:

* "When you start the experiment, fully submerge the specimen in acid."

* "Because of the storm, my house was somewhat submerged (in water)."

* "He is afraid of being submerged (in water)."

* "The spy submerged herself (in water) in order to hide."

* "Beware of submerged mines."

You might also distinguish between underwater swimming and surface swimming by saying "swims while submerged" and "swims while not submerged".

Of course, the gloss "be submerged (verb)" is only a suggestion. You might also consider glosses such as "submerge, place underwater (verb)" or "immerse (verb)", or even an 'adjectival' verb such as "be submerged [in] (verb)".

Non-verb alternatives (or supplements) might be a noun such as "area underwater, area below the surface of a liquid (noun)" or even an adverb such as "under-liquidly, taking place while submerged in liquid".

However, I feel verbs are very handy because we have so many different ways to modify them using various affixes and adverbs, allowing us to make distinctions such as "slightly submerged", "almost completely submerged" or "slowly progressing towards fully submerging oneself for the purpose of hiding" with relative ease.

The word would not necessarily have to be limited to liquids; it might also refer to being immersed in a gas (such as air, or an alien atmosphere) or a solid (such as sand or snow), or even a plasma or a vacuum.

Possible workarounds using existing vocabulary might include words such as {Dech}, {vel}, {qat}, {ngaS} and {HaH}. However, after considering these alternatives, I still feel that having a canonical word specifically for complete submersion/immersion would be quite handy:

* {Dech} - This doesn't really cut it, because an island is surrounded by water, but if it is *submerged* in water then it's not much of an island anymore. Likewise, in a desert, you would be surrounded by sand, but you'd best avoid being submerged in it.

* {vel} - This is closer to the intended meaning, but I still don't quite feel it covers the intended meaning. When I've gone for a swim and am coming up on land, I will be covered in water until I've had time to dry. If it is raining, I'll probably remain covered in water until I've found shelter.

* {qat} - This comes quite close to the intended meaning, but I'm not sure it's quite there. A {qatwI'} may be just a thin layer, which I don't really think covers (hehe) the intended meaning of being placed into an environment filled with a substance.

* {ngaS} - This, I feel, comes the closest to encapsulating (hehe) the intended meaning, and is probably what I'd use for most situations given what's currently available. However, I feel it sort of suffers from the same issue as {qat}; a {ngaSwI'} is often just a (relatively) thin layer, rather than an environment.

* {HaH} - This makes sense for some possible uses of the word "submerge(d)", but given the definition "marinade, soak, drench", it seems the focus is quite specific; you're saturating something with liquid, which doesn't feel right for describing, say, a spy who is submerging herself for the purpose of remaining undetected, or designing an underwater weapon, where soaking is usually a design challenge to be overcome.

________________________________
From: Felix Malmenbeck
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 13:19
To: tlhingan-hol at kli.org; tlhingan-hol at lists.kli.org; a.appleyard at btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!

I wonder if maybe we should start flagging our e-mails to make it easier for qurgh to filter out the ones that don't contain any new requests to add to his list. Something like:

== DISCUSSION ONLY: No new requests in this message. ==

> peDwI' may mean:-
> - V:snow VS9:[agent|instrument]

There is some conflicting evidence regarding what the subject and object of {SIS}, which likely has a syntax similar to {peD}:

According to an e-mail by Roger Cheesbro:

> All correct. SISlu', altho grammaticlly correct, he didn't particularly
> like. Someone COULD use it but to me it sounds like they skipped science
> class and don't know what the subject is. You can also give it an object
> and say things like the clouds rained down cats and dogs. ...or something
> like that; you get the idea. But when Marc and I went outside and drops
> of water were falling on us, he looked up and simply said "SIS".

This would indicate that a {SISwI'} would actually be a rain cloud, rather than the rain itself, which would be {bIQ SISlu'bogh}.

However, in paq'batlh (paq'raD, Canto 13, Stanza 6), we have the sentence {chaHDaq SIStaHvIS 'Iw}, indicating that rainwater may indeed be described as {SISwI'}.

It's very possible that {SIS} (and {peD}) have some sort of dual syntax, where context and common sense dictate which reading is correct.

It's also worth noting that when it comes to rain and snow, the clouds and the matter that falls from them is really one and the same; just at different stages. (Well, at least for the most part; a meteorologist may know of some exceptions to this.)

In any event, I fully support the request for a word for snow, whether it's a canonized modification of a known word or a whole new one.

________________________________
From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces at lists.kli.org> on behalf of Anthony Appleyard <a.appleyard at btinternet.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 07:28
To: tlhingan-hol at kli.org; tlhingan-hol at lists.kli.org
Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!

peDwI' may mean:-
- V:snow VS9:[agent|instrument]

Nahuatl does the same: [tonatiuh] = "the sun" is an agent of a verb root that means "for the sun to shine".
----Original message----
>From : sustel at trimboli.name
Date : 21/03/2017 - 15:08 (GMTST)
To : tlhingan-hol at lists.kli.org
Subject : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!

I think you are. Someone asked for the noun for snow, ...

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