[tlhIngan Hol] Rendered fat

David Holt kenjutsuka at live.com
Sat Feb 18 07:15:54 PST 2017

ghItlh SapIr:
I suspect that part of the problem is that, for native speakers of 
English and most other European languages, the most natural place for the
subject is before the verb. Thus, when we see *Soj vutlu'*, our
instincts tell us that *Soj* is the subject, rather than an object in a
sentence that doens't have an overt subject.

ghItlh Jeremy (jIH):
I can't speak for others who have asked this question, but placement of the
object had nothing to do with my question.  I based my question solely from
the perspective that the pronominal prefixes which normally indicate  first-
or second-person subject are used with {-lu'}.  My hope was that following that
model, we could also allow {-wI'} to see the assumed object as the subject.
There is a form of "promotion" of object to subject, though admittedly
incomplete, especially  since the explicit object placement does not change.
I admit that I couldn't recall the results of previous discussions and so threw it
in as an additional possability to be discussed for my purposes.  I was not
proposing it as my best suggestion and knew  there was a good chance others
would shoot it down.  I accept their objections.  

ghItlh SuStel:
The exact sentence TKD uses to explain the indefinite subject prefixes is this:
"Those prefixes which normally indicate first- or second-person subject and
third-person singular object (vI-, Da-, wI-, bo-) are used to indicate first- or
second-person  object." TKD is telling us that the object of a verb with -lu'
remains an object with -lu' there. The prefixes are being reassigned; they no
longer have their old roles when -lu' is used. There is no promotion of object
to subject.

Works for me.  Just to be clear, I was not trying to defend my use of {-wI'} with {-lu'}.  I was trying to defend the accusation that I had assumed the object could act like the subject because I'm used to the subject being before the verb.  Your points are valid and I have not argued against any of them.  In another situation I'm pretty sure I would have decried the use of {-wI'} with {-lu'}.  But I really wanted to be wrong so I could streamline my translation just a tiny bit (because space and brevity is an issue in this project) and so suggested it to see what the consensus was.  My intent was not to open an old wound, but just to be reminded what the scar looked like.  Thank you for your input on {-wI'} with {-lu'}.  I see that while posting this you have posted another reply, so I'll go see if you have addressed there the question of whether the thing being rendered is the subject or object of {'Im}?


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