[tlhIngan Hol] Humerus

[mayqel qunenoS]

ghunchu'wI', thank you for your comments ;

> Without it, I doubt anyone lacking specialized
> training in orthopedic terminology would recognize any of the jargon.

Yes you're right ; I wrote this post trying to see how effectively
someone could use klingon grammar and vocabulary, in order to describe
complex medical texts. I agree that unless someone is a specialist,
then he would be unable to understand this description. However, it
amazed me, how far someone can take the klingon language in order to
describe texts like this.

> You might not be familiar with the usual idiom for
> saying how things are named. It comes from Skybox card S27

I didn't know that ; thank you for sharing

> Why are you sprinkling parentheses through your messages lately?

I was trying to find a way, to limit the ambiguity in cases where
there are multiple nouns in apposition. Since it is confusing, I will
try to refrain from doing this.

jIH:
> (Hom mI' wa') tIq law' 'uS DungDaq Hoch HomDu' luSamlu'bogh tIq puS.
ghunchu'wI' :
> the humerus is the longest of the bones of the upper limb.
ghunchu'wI' :
> Your English even says "bones of the upper limb", which in Klingon is just a
> noun-noun construction: {DeS HomDu'}. I'm assuming "upper limb" means "arm",
> though what you wrote was {'uS} "leg".

this part of the post, made me way too confused as well. I thought of
using {DeS HomDu'}, but the problem was that from a medical point of
view, although many could use the word "arm" in order to describe the
entire upper limb, if someone would write as a specialist (at least in
greece), he would use the word "arm" only to describe the part between
the shoulder and the elbow.

for this reason I tried to write that "the humerus is the longest of
the bones of the limb which is above the leg" ; but now I see that
this would be confusing too, because when we say "leg', we mean only
the "part which is between the knee and the ankle". So, I should have
gone with "limb which someone uses in order to walk".

jIH :
> moQ rur (Hom mI' wa') (volchaH 'er'In) 'ej ro (Hom mI' wa') je muvmeH potlh.
> it's proximal end resembles a sphere, and its main significance is
> articulating the humerus with the trunk.
ghunchu'wI' :
> I can't follow the Klingon, sorry. I have exhausted my willingness to
> try to read through the parentheses and work out the grammar you're
> trying to use

you're right ; there is a seeming mismatch, between the klingon and
the english, because the klingon passage assumes that the reader is
someone who is a specialist so, he already knows what the description
is all about.

the {volchaH 'er'In} means "shoulder end" which stands for "proximal end" ;

jIH:
> 'ej lupongmeH mI' {wa'} lulo' ghIv HaqwI''e'.
> and the orthopaedic surgeons use the number one.
ghunchu'wI'
> Is this a different "one" from what you already told us?

yes ; it refers to the numbering system of the müller ao
classification for the proximal part.

ghunchu'wI':
> I have never encountered the word "sulcus" before, but I'm pretty sure
> {taw} "road, street" doesn't fit. Do you know the word {Qargh}
> "fissure"?

oh, this is good ! if only I had thought of it yesterday..

ghunchu'wI':
> Is there a reason you specified "muscle tendon" instead of simply
> calling it {to'waQ} alone?

I wanted to say "in this sulcus lies the tendon of the muscle (which
muscle) connects..)". Because this sulcus has roof which is formed by
the transverse humeral ligament, I was trying to specify that the
tendon, and not the ligament, was the thing being referred to.

ghunchu'wI':
> "On this street, one finds muscle ligament which connects bone number
> number eleven and bone number number two which is being in the torso's
> exterior."

again I'm really sorry for the confusion ; by the time I was writing
this part of the mail, I had developed a terrible headache ! the "bone
number eleven" is wrong. I wanted to write "bone number 14" in order
to describe the scapula, which the biceps connects to the radius (the
lateral one of the two bones of the forearm, which is described by the
number 2).

Anyway, thank you for your comments ! Next time I will try to be more careful !

mayqel

On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 4:08 PM, Alan Anderson <qunchuy at alcaco.net> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 12:12 PM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Humerus
>
> Thank you for including an English version of what you're describing.
> Without it, I doubt anyone lacking specialized training in orthopedic
> terminology would recognize any of the jargon. But I think it would be
> better if you separated the Klingon and English text, instead of
> interleaving it. The way you are writing it now makes it difficult to
> read just the Klingon without seeing the English at the same time,
> keeping the reader from being confident that he or she is reading what
> you wrote instead of what you meant.
>
>> tera'Daq, DeS Hom lupongmeH Qel, mu' humerus lulo'.
>> at earth, doctors in order to name the bone of the arm, use the word humerus.
>
> This is a lot more complicated than I would have said it. My rendition
> would be something like this:
> { DeS HomvaD "humerus" lupong tera' Qel } "Earth doctors name the arm
> bone 'humerus'."
>
> You might not be familiar with the usual idiom for saying how things
> are named. It comes from Skybox card S27: {roD 'oHvaD juHqo' ponglu'
> neH} "It [Qo'noS] is usually referred to as simply 'The Homeworld.'"
>
>
>> 'ej mI' {wa'} lulo' (müller AO ghorpu'ghach buv) lulo'bogh ghIv HaqwI''e'.
>> and the orthopaedic surgeons who employ the müller AO fracture
>> classification use the number "one".
>
> Why are you sprinkling parentheses through your messages lately? If
> it's because you think it makes it easier to read, I can't agree. A
> better way to write clearer, more understandable Klingon is to split
> up complicated ideas into smaller sentences, or even just to not make
> them so complicated in the first place. For example:
> { 'oHvaD <<Hom wa'>> per müller AO buv pat } "The müller AO
> classification system labels it 'bone one'."
>
>> (Hom mI' wa') tIq law' 'uS DungDaq Hoch HomDu' luSamlu'bogh tIq puS.
>> the humerus is the longest of the bones of the upper limb.
>
> "Bone number one" in Klingon is just {Hom wa'}. You aren't labeling
> the number; you're labeling the bone.
>
> I don't think the {-Daq} suffix works here. Your English even says
> "bones of the upper limb", which in Klingon is just a noun-noun
> construction: {DeS HomDu'}. I'm assuming "upper limb" means "arm",
> though what you wrote was {'uS} "leg".
>
> We have an example of this kind of phrasing in a line from Star Trek
> V: {qIbDaq SuvwI' SoH Dun law' Hoch Dun puS} "You would be the
> greatest warrior in the Galaxy." Following that pattern, your meaning
> would be carried by {DeS HomDu''e' Hom wa' tIq law' Hoch tIq puS}
> "Bone one is the longest of the arm bones."
>
>> moQ rur (Hom mI' wa') (volchaH 'er'In) 'ej ro (Hom mI' wa') je muvmeH potlh.
>> it's proximal end resembles a sphere, and its main significance is
>> articulating the humerus with the trunk.
>
> I can't follow the Klingon, sorry. I have exhausted my willingness to
> try to read through the parentheses and work out the grammar you're
> trying to use. At this point, I'd just be translating the English for
> you instead of giving helpful advice on how to write it more clearly.
> I get the impression that you're trying to take a shortcut by
> translating the words instead of the ideas, but that might just be
> because I am unfamiliar with the topic and I don't recognize the idea
> from the words you're using.
>
>> (Hom mI' wa') muvwI' Daq wa'DIch lupongmeH, mu' {nach} lu'lo' Qel
>> in order to identify the proximal articulating area of the humerus,
>> doctors use the word "head".
>
> I don't see where {muvwI' Daq wa'DIch} came from. Is it referring to
> the {moQ} mentioned in the previous sentence? If so, this could be
> much simpler:
> {moQvaD nach lupong Qel} "Doctors call the sphere a head."
>
>> 'ej lupongmeH mI' {wa'} lulo' ghIv HaqwI''e'.
>> and the orthopaedic surgeons use the number one.
>
> Is this a different "one" from what you already told us? I didn't
> think "orthopedic" was restricted to arms and legs; am I wrong?
>
>> (Hom mI' wa') nach Sumbogh Daq jeq cha' Daq :
>> near the humeral head protrude two areas :
>
> It took me a while to figure out what you're doing with {Sum}. It
> doesn't have the kind of "be close (to something)" meaning you are
> trying to use. It is a verb of quality like {tIq} or {'ugh}. The thing
> which is nearby is the subject of the verb, and there is no object.
>
> You could say {nachDaq Sum cha' jeqwI'} "At the head, two protruders
> are nearby." Since only one {nach} has been mentioned, being more
> specific is unnecessary. Or you could use the noun {retlh} "area
> nearby" instead of the verb {Sum} "be nearby": {nach retlhDaq jeq cha'
> 'ay'} "Two sections protrude at the area beside the head."
>
>> jeqwI''a' jeqHom je.
>> the greater and the lesser tuberosity.
>>
>> jeqwI''a' jeqHom je jojDaq taw jaQ tu'lu'.
>> between the tuberosities lies a deep sulcus.
>
> I have never encountered the word "sulcus" before, but I'm pretty sure
> {taw} "road, street" doesn't fit. Do you know the word {Qargh}
> "fissure"?
>
>> intertubercular groove 'oH tera' pongDaj'e'.
>> its terran name is intertubercular groove.
>>
>> tawvamDaq, (Hom mI' wa'maH wa') (ro HurDaq 'oHtaHbogh Hom mI' cha') je
>> rarbogh Somraw to'waQ tu'lu'.
>> this groove is occupied by the bicipital tendon.
>
> "On this street, one finds muscle ligament which connects bone number
> number eleven and bone number number two which is being in the torso's
> exterior."
>
> With the exception of the extraneous word {mI'}, this makes sense as a
> sentence. The new bones are a surprise, and I have no idea which ones
> those numbers represent, but that's just a matter of my own ignorance.
> Is there a reason you specified "muscle tendon" instead of simply
> calling it {to'waQ} alone? I'm not trained in anatomy, but if it's a
> tendon as opposed to a ligament, shouldn't it be connecting a muscle
> instead of two bones? I'm mostly concerned with the {ro HurDaq},
> though. I have no idea what that "bone two outside the torso"
> represents.
>
>> nach jeqwI'Du' je jojDaq, (Hom mI' wa') Qur mong tu'lu'.
>> between the head and the tuberosities lies the anatomical neck.
>>
>> 'ej jeqwI'Du' bIngDaq Haq mong tu'lu'.
>> and below the tuberosities lies the surgical neck.
>
> The distinction between {Qur mong} and {Haq mong}.is interesting, and
> the choice of words is well done (though I don't know nearly enough to
> be able to judge *how* well).
>
>
> This is highly technical stuff. If you're writing for someone already
> trained in the subject, the complexity might be appropriate. But for
> "regular people" who happen to speak Klingon, you should probably work
> on making the reader's task easier by using simpler phrasing and by
> taking advantage of context to remove unnecessary wordiness. If subtle
> differences between {Hom to'waQ} and {Somraw to'waQ} are really
> important, go ahead and keep them, but if that level of detail isn't
> required you can safely ignore the slight lack of precision.
>
> -- ghunchu'wI'
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