[tlhIngan Hol] Saruman and Lurtz

SuStel sustel at trimboli.name
Tue Aug 23 06:33:27 PDT 2016

In a subsequent post you express doubt about your aspect suffixes. I 
will comment on them here, among other comments.

On 8/23/2016 6:08 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
> *lurtz*vaD QIjtaH *saruman* ; jatlhtaH:

I wouldn't normally expect a *-taH* here. It's not wrong per se, but the 
fact that his speech is ongoing isn't really relevant, is it? You want 
to talk about the fact of what he said, rather than the fact of its 
being ongoing.

Hasta lut DaDeltaH. paq vImaSchu'. Qatlhqu' /Qeb joH/ mughmeH Qu'.

> chay' orcs chenmoHlu'ta' ? bISov'a' ?

Considering the English original, "Do you know how the Orcs first came 
into being?" it seems to me that your aspect suffix here is correct. 
Saruman is asking how /were/ the Orcs made, not how /are/ Orcs made. It 
was an event. Completion makes sense here.

Sometimes one will pluralize a foreign word using the native language's 
plurals, and sometimes one use the foreign language's plurals. You've 
chosen the latter. I'll stick with that in this reply.

> wa'DIch elves chaHpu'

This use of an ordinal at the beginning of a sentence is still new 
enough to us that I'm not completely comfortable with it, but I accept 
it as canonical. However, you have two choices here:

    *wa'DIch */elves/*chaH
    */first they were elves/

    */they had been elves/

You don't want both together; that means /first they had been elves,/ 
which suggests that when you start ("first") they had already completed 
being elves, or that first they are elves for a moment.

>   'ach quchta' HoSwI'pu' Hurgh ;

This one's a toughie. On the one hand, knowing my /Silmarillion/, I know 
that elves weren't taken by the servants of Melkor all at once; while 
they lived at Cuiviénen his shadows and spirits spied on them and 
waylaid them. *quch* (without the *-ta'*) is really more appropriate.

On the other hand, if you're going strictly by what Saruman says in the 
movie, you'd really have no way of knowing that. You might well think he 
was referring to a single raid in which Melkor captured a bunch of 
elves. In that case, *-ta'* would be appropriate.

>   joy'ta'

Same note. *joy'* is more appropriate for what the book describes, but 
for all you know in the movie when Saruman speaks it could have been 

>   'ej
> porghchaj luQaw'ta'..

Drop the *lu-.* Also, same note regarding aspect here.

You might want to use *rIQmoH* instead of *Qaw'* here. I don't feel 
either quite captures /mutilate,/ though.

I'm out of time for now. See if you can apply this to the rest of your 

>   tagha' ghot rIQchu' mojpu'.. lo'laHbe'pu' chaH..
> ghot luQaw'lu'chu'ta'bogh chaH. 'ach DaH povchoH chaH !
> SuvmeH *uruk-hai*wIj.. 'Iv Datoy' ?
> ('ej ngugh jang lurtz) : Saruman !!!
> qunnoq
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