nughIjchugh vay' matuHnIS'a'?
I expect this is probably going to be a “we don’t know (yet)” thing, but do we have any evidence to indicate whether or not the taboo against using {-vIp} with a prefix indicating a first person subject extends to using {ghIj} with a prefix indicating a first person object? Like, is it okay to be afraid of a concrete thing, but not okay of being afraid to do something? Or is the taboo against admitting to fear of any kind at all? {jagh vISuvvIp} - obviously taboo {mughIj jagh} - is this taboo? Or just a normal and expected reaction? {Dujeychugh jagh nIv yItuHQo'} and all, but {DughIjchugh jagh nIv, DatuHnIS'a'?}
Are you asking grammar-wise, or culturally-wise ? ~ m. qunen'oS please rerack weights
On 4/12/2019 8:13 AM, Daniel Dadap wrote:
On Apr 12, 2019, at 07:07, mayqel qunen'oS<mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Are you asking grammar-wise, or culturally-wise ? Culturally. Obviously, grammar doesn’t restrict who can be the subject or object of {ghIj} or a verb with {-vIp}. {jIghIj'eghvIp.}
I suggest you ask the Klingon Culture Mailing List. There is no known linguistic taboo of using the verb *ghIj.* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 at 14:06, Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net> wrote:
I expect this is probably going to be a “we don’t know (yet)” thing, but do we have any evidence to indicate whether or not the taboo against using {-vIp} with a prefix indicating a first person subject extends to using {ghIj} with a prefix indicating a first person object? Like, is it okay to be afraid of a concrete thing, but not okay of being afraid to do something? Or is the taboo against admitting to fear of any kind at all?
{jagh vISuvvIp} - obviously taboo {mughIj jagh} - is this taboo? Or just a normal and expected reaction? {Dujeychugh jagh nIv yItuHQo'} and all, but {DughIjchugh jagh nIv, DatuHnIS'a'?}
not qoHpu''e' neH ghIjlu'. The existence of this adage makes me fairly confident that there is no such taboo. Indeed, while someone who uses {ghIj} with a first-person object too often may be a coward, the saying suggests that anyone who never uses {ghIj} with a first-person object is a fool. -- De'vID
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 at 14:06, Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net {jagh vISuvvIp} - obviously taboo {mughIj jagh} - is this taboo? Or just a normal and expected reaction? {Dujeychugh jagh nIv yItuHQo'} and all, but {DughIjchugh jagh nIv, DatuHnIS'a'?}
Am 12.04.2019 um 14:41 schrieb De'vID:
not qoHpu''e' neH ghIjlu'.
The existence of this adage makes me fairly confident that there is no such taboo.
Yes, indeed. Besides, there is a difference between "being scared of something" and "being afraid to do something". For instance, a Klingon may say {mughIj Ha'DIbaHvam} to mention that this animal makes im feel uncomfortable for some reason, but he may be very brave and touch it anway, so he's not {touching-vIp}. A phrase from paq'batlh somehow shows the difference: jIDoghqu' vIghIjlu'mo' 'ej bortaS vIneHmo' jIleghlaHbe' 'ach chovuvtaH "What a fool I have been, blinded by fear and spite, and still you find me worthy." (PB, paq'raD, 2. qeHHa' loDnI') -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/PaqbatlhText
On 4/12/2019 9:01 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 12.04.2019 um 14:41 schrieb De'vID:
not qoHpu''e' neH ghIjlu'.
The existence of this adage makes me fairly confident that there is no such taboo.
Yes, indeed. Besides, there is a difference between "being scared of something" and "being afraid to do something".
For instance, a Klingon may say {mughIj Ha'DIbaHvam} to mention that this animal makes im feel uncomfortable for some reason, but he may be very brave and touch it anway, so he's not {touching-vIp}.
He is touching*-**vIp.* The suffix *-vIp* doesn't preclude you overcoming your fear and doing the verb anyway. The existence of the proverb doesn't give me much confidence to conclude that there is no such taboo. It just suggests to me that there are competing ideals in Klingon society: on the one hand, there is pressure not to admit fear; on the other hand, there is a recognition that understanding one's own fear is empowering. We have similar pressures in our own societies. The taboo on using *-vIp* with a first-person subject only addresses one side of those pressures. I imagine that the same people who avoid using first-person *-vIp* would also avoid using *ghIj* to admit their own fear. People who espouse the proverb would be less hesitant to use first-person *-vIp.* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
FYI, here's a post Lieven shared with us from Okrand from February, 2018 about {ghIj}: "Maltz says he knows no word for fear. Maltz is one tough dude. He thinks using {ghIj} can work, however. Maltz knows the Federation Standard word "fear". He doesn't know a Klingon equivalent. It's one of those cases where one language has a word for something but another language doesn't. That doesn't mean you can't talk about it or express the same idea — it's just that you do it a different way. "You will encounter fear tomorrow might be {wa'leS DughIj vay'} or {wa'leS DaghIjlu'} ("Tomorrow somebody will scare you," "Tomorrow you'll be scared"). "How do I recognize fear? might be something like {vIghIjlu' chay' 'e' vISov?} ("How do/will I know that I'm scared?") "Fear speaks very loud can be recast using similar but different imagery: DaghIjlu'chugh bItIwqu' "If you're scared, you'll react really emotionally" DaghIjlu' 'e' DabuSHa'laHbe' "You can't ignore that you're scared" DaghIjlu'chugh chuSqu' QIn "If you're scared, the message is really noisy" (or {DaghIjlu'DI'…} "When you're scared…") DaghIjlu'chugh jachqu' maQ "If you're scared, the sign/omen yells (loudly)" (or {DaghIjlu'DI'…} "When you're scared…") DaghIjlu'chugh ghumqu'lu' "If you're scared, the alarm is really sounded" (or {DaghIjlu'DI'…} "When you're scared…" or {…ghumlu'bej} "…the alarm is certainly sounded" or {…ghumlu'chu'} "…the alarm is sounded perfectly" "These are only ideas; there are certainly other ways to do this." -- Voragh -----Original Message----- From: Lieven L. Litaer
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 at 14:06, Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net {jagh vISuvvIp} - obviously taboo {mughIj jagh} - is this taboo? Or just a normal and expected reaction? {Dujeychugh jagh nIv yItuHQo'} and all, but {DughIjchugh jagh nIv, DatuHnIS'a'?}
Am 12.04.2019 um 14:41 schrieb De'vID:
not qoHpu''e' neH ghIjlu'. The existence of this adage makes me fairly confident that there is no such taboo.
Yes, indeed. Besides, there is a difference between "being scared of something" and "being afraid to do something". For instance, a Klingon may say {mughIj Ha'DIbaHvam} to mention that this animal makes im feel uncomfortable for some reason, but he may be very brave and touch it anway, so he's not {touching-vIp}. A phrase from paq'batlh somehow shows the difference: jIDoghqu' vIghIjlu'mo' 'ej bortaS vIneHmo' jIleghlaHbe' 'ach chovuvtaH "What a fool I have been, blinded by fear and spite, and still you find me worthy." (PB, paq'raD, 2. qeHHa' loDnI') -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany"
participants (6)
-
Daniel Dadap -
De'vID -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel