Klingon Word of the Day: bIS'ub
Klingon Word of the Day for Saturday, October 17, 2020 Klingon word: bIS'ub Part of speech: noun Definition: bottom (interior) Source: HQ:v8n3p2 This Klingon Word of the Day is brought to you by qurgh (qurgh@kli.org).
Klingon Word of the Day for Saturday, October 17, 2020 Klingon word: bIS'ub Part of speech: noun Definition: bottom (interior) Source: HQ:v8n3p2 _______________________________________________ (IMO, HQ 8.3): The word for bottom, the counterpart of {yor}, is {pIrmuS}. This word refers to the underside of something, not the interior bottom (such as the bottom of a well or the bottom of a bowl where a few drops of milk remain after eating cereal). The word for the interior bottom of something is {bIS'ub}. If an item is located in the bottom of a box, it is located in the box's {bIS'ub}. If something is found underneath a box, it is found beneath the box's {pIrmuS}. SEE ALSO: pIrmuS bottom (exterior) (n) yor top (exterior) (n) 'aqroS top (interior) (n) rav floor (n) -- Voragh Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
It strikes me that {bIS’ub} and {pIrmuS} are words that, like “animal” and {Ha’DIbaH} would be nearly impossible to distinguish between the pair of words by lipreading. Given that Okrand’s early work with the Star Trek, even before working on the Klingon language involved coming up with Vulcan words that would lip sync to video shot in English, I wonder… {pIrmuS} took form as a pun based on Pirimus and Thisby, the play-within-a-play in Shakespeare’s Midsummer Night’s Dream because the inner character Pirimus was played by the outer play’s character named Bottom. But what does {bIS'ub} come from? Maybe just random sounds, maybe some other pun, or maybe Okrand built in the ability to fix this after the fact if he ever got it wrong in some future movie... charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Oct 19, 2020, at 10:06 AM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
Klingon Word of the Day for Saturday, October 17, 2020
Klingon word: bIS'ub Part of speech: noun Definition: bottom (interior) Source: HQ:v8n3p2 _______________________________________________
(IMO, HQ 8.3): The word for bottom, the counterpart of {yor}, is {pIrmuS}. This word refers to the underside of something, not the interior bottom (such as the bottom of a well or the bottom of a bowl where a few drops of milk remain after eating cereal). The word for the interior bottom of something is {bIS'ub}. If an item is located in the bottom of a box, it is located in the box's {bIS'ub}. If something is found underneath a box, it is found beneath the box's {pIrmuS}.
SEE ALSO: pIrmuS bottom (exterior) (n) yor top (exterior) (n) 'aqroS top (interior) (n) rav floor (n)
-- Voragh Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
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On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 at 16:50, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote:
It strikes me that {bIS’ub} and {pIrmuS} are words that, like “animal” and {Ha’DIbaH} would be nearly impossible to distinguish between the pair of words by lipreading.
I don't understand. Are you claiming that {pIrmuS} and {bIS'ub} have the same lip movements as "bottom"?
Given that Okrand’s early work with the Star Trek, even before working on the Klingon language involved coming up with Vulcan words that would lip sync to video shot in English, I wonder…
{pIrmuS} took form as a pun based on Pirimus and Thisby, the play-within-a-play in Shakespeare’s Midsummer Night’s Dream because the inner character Pirimus was played by the outer play’s character named Bottom.
But what does {bIS'ub} come from?
Given that Pyramus and Thisbe are a pair who talk to each other through a wall, I am strongly inclined to believe that {bIS'ub} is some kind of transformation on "Thisbe". (The "isb" is basically there in both words. One just has to explain why the initial "th" became a {b}.) -- De'vID
I’m making no claims about lip movement similarities between the English meaning and {pIrmuS} and {bIS'ub}. I’m saying the lip movements of the two Klingon words are similar to each other, while the sound is remarkably different. Same vowels in the same position in each of two syllables, {p} and {b} are visually indistinguishable and the other differences are not visually obvious. Two words with tightly related meaning that have very similar lip movements, but very different sounds. It just struck me as interesting. I’m not suggesting anything profound here. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Oct 21, 2020, at 7:39 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 at 16:50, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com <mailto:willmartin2@mac.com>> wrote: It strikes me that {bIS’ub} and {pIrmuS} are words that, like “animal” and {Ha’DIbaH} would be nearly impossible to distinguish between the pair of words by lipreading.
I don't understand. Are you claiming that {pIrmuS} and {bIS'ub} have the same lip movements as "bottom"?
Given that Okrand’s early work with the Star Trek, even before working on the Klingon language involved coming up with Vulcan words that would lip sync to video shot in English, I wonder…
{pIrmuS} took form as a pun based on Pirimus and Thisby, the play-within-a-play in Shakespeare’s Midsummer Night’s Dream because the inner character Pirimus was played by the outer play’s character named Bottom.
But what does {bIS'ub} come from?
Given that Pyramus and Thisbe are a pair who talk to each other through a wall, I am strongly inclined to believe that {bIS'ub} is some kind of transformation on "Thisbe". (The "isb" is basically there in both words. One just has to explain why the initial "th" became a {b}.)
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 10/21/2020 11:24 AM, Will Martin wrote:
I’m making no claims about lip movement similarities between the English meaning and {pIrmuS} and {bIS'ub}. I’m saying the lip movements of the two Klingon words are similar to each other, while the sound is remarkably different. Same vowels in the same position in each of two syllables, {p} and {b} are visually indistinguishable and the other differences are not visually obvious.
Two words with tightly related meaning that have very similar lip movements, but very different sounds.
The lip-movements of *pIr* and *bIS* are similar, but the movements of *muS* and *'ub* are very different. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 18:05, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 10/21/2020 11:24 AM, Will Martin wrote:
I’m making no claims about lip movement similarities between the English meaning and {pIrmuS} and {bIS'ub}. I’m saying the lip movements of the two Klingon words are similar to each other, while the sound is remarkably different. Same vowels in the same position in each of two syllables, {p} and {b} are visually indistinguishable and the other differences are not visually obvious.
Two words with tightly related meaning that have very similar lip movements, but very different sounds.
The lip-movements of *pIr* and *bIS* are similar, but the movements of *muS* and *'ub* are very different.
wa' DoS wIqIp. nelbe'chuqbej. -- De'vID
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 13:39, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
Given that Pyramus and Thisbe are a pair who talk to each other through a wall, I am strongly inclined to believe that {bIS'ub} is some kind of transformation on "Thisbe". (The "isb" is basically there in both words. One just has to explain why the initial "th" became a {b}.)
In fact, looking at the word as it's written, I'm wondering if it isn't a transcription error, either by Dr. Okrand or somebody else. Lowercase "t" could almost be the same as "b" in handwriting, if one writes the crossbar too short on the left and the loop curves too high on the right. If it had been *{tIS'ub}, there would probably be no doubt that it's a pun on "Thisbe". (Does anyone have a printed copy of HolQeD 8:3 to check?) -- De'vID
On 10/21/2020 10:04 PM, De'vID wrote:
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 13:39, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com <mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>> wrote:
Given that Pyramus and Thisbe are a pair who talk to each other through a wall, I am strongly inclined to believe that {bIS'ub} is some kind of transformation on "Thisbe". (The "isb" is basically there in both words. One just has to explain why the initial "th" became a {b}.)
In fact, looking at the word as it's written, I'm wondering if it isn't a transcription error, either by Dr. Okrand or somebody else. Lowercase "t" could almost be the same as "b" in handwriting, if one writes the crossbar too short on the left and the loop curves too high on the right. If it had been *{tIS'ub}, there would probably be no doubt that it's a pun on "Thisbe".
(Does anyone have a printed copy of HolQeD 8:3 to check?)
*bIS'ub* appears twice in the article. It it's a mistake, it's a repeated one. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Thu, 22 Oct 2020 at 04:28, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 10/21/2020 10:04 PM, De'vID wrote:
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 13:39, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
Given that Pyramus and Thisbe are a pair who talk to each other through a wall, I am strongly inclined to believe that {bIS'ub} is some kind of transformation on "Thisbe". (The "isb" is basically there in both words. One just has to explain why the initial "th" became a {b}.)
In fact, looking at the word as it's written, I'm wondering if it isn't a transcription error, either by Dr. Okrand or somebody else. Lowercase "t" could almost be the same as "b" in handwriting, if one writes the crossbar too short on the left and the loop curves too high on the right. If it had been *{tIS'ub}, there would probably be no doubt that it's a pun on "Thisbe".
(Does anyone have a printed copy of HolQeD 8:3 to check?)
*bIS'ub* appears twice in the article. It it's a mistake, it's a repeated one.
Here are the sentences from HolQeD 8:3 in which it appears: "The word for the interior bottom of something is {bIS'ub}. If an item is located in the bottom of a box, it is located in the box's {bIS'ub}." The two occurrences are back-to-back. If one misreads the word, it's easy enough to copy it wrongly twice in close succession. There is precedence for {t}-{b} confusion in canon: on KGT p.132, the idiom *{tIb; tI'qa' vIghro' rur} "nervous as a tika cat" appears, whereas TKD has {bIt} for "be nervous, uneasy". Dr. Okrand saw "tika" and mistyped *{tIb} for {bIt} (ostensibly because of the initial "t"). It's not implausible that he had "box... bottom" in mind, and mistyped {bIS'ub} for *{tIS'ub}. But in any case, {bIS'ub} is the Klingon word now, however it originated. -- De'vID
participants (5)
-
De'vID -
Klingon Word of the Day -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel -
Will Martin