we are always saying that klingon phonology utilizes cvc. so, how do you explain {'InSong} ? qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
Am 10.12.2016 um 11:01 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
we are always saying that klingon phonology utilizes cvc. so, how do you explain {'InSong} ?
'-I-n = C-V-C S-o-ng = C-V-C Why the confusion? -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Phonology
lieven:
'-I-n = C-V-C S-o-ng = C-V-C Why the confusion?
according to the rule of cvc, how come that after the {n} the {S} follows ? this produces (cvccvc). the rule refers to clusters of three (cvc-cvc-cvc), or does it go like (cvcvcvcvc..) ? so far I thought that according to this rule, right after a consonant always a vowel follows. qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 10 Dec 2016 12:16 pm, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 10.12.2016 um 11:01 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
we are always saying that klingon phonology utilizes cvc. so, how do you explain {'InSong} ?
'-I-n = C-V-C S-o-ng = C-V-C
Why the confusion?
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Phonology _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
It's worth stating that I don't believe the rules of Klingon syllable structure have ever been directly stated, but rather this is based on observation. The majority of all cases can be described as such: Every syllable begins with a consonant, followed by a vowel. This may be (and usually is) followed by a consonant, or one of the three permissible terminal consonant clusters: -rgh, -w' or -y'. No syllable ends on -ow, -ow', -uw or -uw'. So single syllable options are: CV - tI Do ta ... CVC - batlh chuch por ... CVrgh - 'argh burgh qorgh ... CVw' - maw' law' ghaw' ... (interestingly, there don't appear to be any -ew' or -Iw' words) CVy' - lay' loy' bey' ... (no known -Iy' examples) After one of these, you are freee tonstart a new syllable, which may also follow any of these forms. For example: CVC-CVC - 'InSong, bobcho', lalDan CV-CVC - lulIgh, qama' CVC-CV - HaSta, yergho CV-CV-CVC - verengan CVC-CV-CVC - Ha'DIbaH In the event where the forst syllable is simply CV (tera'ngan, lulIgh, bIreQtagh, ...), there may be room for interpretation where one syllable ends and the other ends. Normally, the CV syllable gets "swallowed", so that the two syllables almost sound like one; tera' sounds like "vra" and verengan sounds like "vrengan". This confusion might also arise when using the -oy suffix. Is this the only syllable that can begin on a vowel? Or does it change the stress pattern of the word it's appended to in such a way that the syllable becomes -Coy? (for example, would jupoy be ju-poy, perhaps just ending up sounding like "jpoy"?) There are still exceptions to these "rules", such as those seen in non-Klinogn names (qIrq, pIqarD, 'oqranD) and in no' Hol (paq'batlh, tog'det q'uti 'qoolit). Best wishes, loghaD (CV-CVC) 10 dec. 2016 kl. 11:27 skrev mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com<mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>>: lieven:
'-I-n = C-V-C S-o-ng = C-V-C Why the confusion?
according to the rule of cvc, how come that after the {n} the {S} follows ? this produces (cvccvc). the rule refers to clusters of three (cvc-cvc-cvc), or does it go like (cvcvcvcvc..) ? so far I thought that according to this rule, right after a consonant always a vowel follows. qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 10 Dec 2016 12:16 pm, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de<mailto:levinius@gmx.de>> wrote: Am 10.12.2016 um 11:01 schrieb mayqel qunenoS: we are always saying that klingon phonology utilizes cvc. so, how do you explain {'InSong} ? '-I-n = C-V-C S-o-ng = C-V-C Why the confusion? -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Phonology _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org<mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org<mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
“It's worth stating that I don't believe the rules of Klingon syllable structure have ever been directly stated, but rather this is based on observation” In his recent “Klingon 101” lecture, Okrand explained the rules of a Klingon syllable, though I think he forgot to include final rgh. “In the event where the forst syllable is simply CV (tera'ngan, lulIgh, bIreQtagh, ...), there may be room for interpretation where one syllable ends and the other ends. Normally, the CV syllable gets "swallowed", so that the two syllables almost sound like one; tera' sounds like "vra" and verengan sounds like "vrengan". I don’t do this. I don’t think I’ve ever heard Okrand do this. Klingon doesn't schwa vowels the way English does. Where does this idea come from? “This confusion might also arise when using the -oy suffix. Is this the only syllable that can begin on a vowel? Or does it change the stress pattern of the word it's appended to in such a way that the syllable becomes -Coy? (for example, would jupoy be ju-poy, perhaps just ending up sounding like "jpoy"?)” -oy is not a syllable; it’s a suffix. It’s usually added to a word ending in a consonant, and TKD suggests that a ‘ is added first if the word ends in a vowel. Adding the suffix completes the syllable. Though I don’t give much weight to actors’ pronunciations, I will point out that Azetbur pronounces vavoy as va-VOY. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name From: Felix Malmenbeck Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2016 6:30 AM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] How do you explain {'InSong} ? It's worth stating that I don't believe the rules of Klingon syllable structure have ever been directly stated, but rather this is based on observation. The majority of all cases can be described as such: Every syllable begins with a consonant, followed by a vowel. This may be (and usually is) followed by a consonant, or one of the three permissible terminal consonant clusters: -rgh, -w' or -y'. No syllable ends on -ow, -ow', -uw or -uw'. So single syllable options are: CV - tI Do ta ... CVC - batlh chuch por ... CVrgh - 'argh burgh qorgh ... CVw' - maw' law' ghaw' ... (interestingly, there don't appear to be any -ew' or -Iw' words) CVy' - lay' loy' bey' ... (no known -Iy' examples) After one of these, you are freee tonstart a new syllable, which may also follow any of these forms. For example: CVC-CVC - 'InSong, bobcho', lalDan CV-CVC - lulIgh, qama' CVC-CV - HaSta, yergho CV-CV-CVC - verengan CVC-CV-CVC - Ha'DIbaH In the event where the forst syllable is simply CV (tera'ngan, lulIgh, bIreQtagh, ...), there may be room for interpretation where one syllable ends and the other ends. Normally, the CV syllable gets "swallowed", so that the two syllables almost sound like one; tera' sounds like "vra" and verengan sounds like "vrengan". This confusion might also arise when using the -oy suffix. Is this the only syllable that can begin on a vowel? Or does it change the stress pattern of the word it's appended to in such a way that the syllable becomes -Coy? (for example, would jupoy be ju-poy, perhaps just ending up sounding like "jpoy"?) There are still exceptions to these "rules", such as those seen in non-Klinogn names (qIrq, pIqarD, 'oqranD) and in no' Hol (paq'batlh, tog'det q'uti 'qoolit). Best wishes, loghaD (CV-CVC) 10 dec. 2016 kl. 11:27 skrev mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>: lieven:
'-I-n = C-V-C S-o-ng = C-V-C Why the confusion? according to the rule of cvc, how come that after the {n} the {S} follows ? this produces (cvccvc). the rule refers to clusters of three (cvc-cvc-cvc), or does it go like (cvcvcvcvc..) ? so far I thought that according to this rule, right after a consonant always a vowel follows. qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
On 10 Dec 2016 12:16 pm, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote: Am 10.12.2016 um 11:01 schrieb mayqel qunenoS: we are always saying that klingon phonology utilizes cvc. so, how do you explain {'InSong} ? '-I-n = C-V-C S-o-ng = C-V-C Why the confusion? -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Phonology _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
is there a difference between the klingon syllable, and the english syllable ? what is the definition of a klingon syllable ? qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 10 Dec 2016 3:48 pm, <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
“It's worth stating that I don't believe the rules of Klingon syllable structure have ever been directly stated, but rather this is based on observation”
In his recent “Klingon 101” lecture, Okrand explained the rules of a Klingon syllable, though I think he forgot to include final *rgh.*
“In the event where the forst syllable is simply CV (tera'ngan, lulIgh, bIreQtagh, ...), there may be room for interpretation where one syllable ends and the other ends. Normally, the CV syllable gets "swallowed", so that the two syllables almost sound like one; tera' sounds like "vra" and verengan sounds like "vrengan".
I don’t do this. I don’t think I’ve ever heard Okrand do this. Klingon doesn't schwa vowels the way English does. Where does this idea come from?
“This confusion might also arise when using the -oy suffix. Is this the only syllable that can begin on a vowel? Or does it change the stress pattern of the word it's appended to in such a way that the syllable becomes -Coy? (for example, would jupoy be ju-poy, perhaps just ending up sounding like "jpoy"?)”
*-oy* is not a syllable; it’s a suffix. It’s usually added to a word ending in a consonant, and TKD suggests that a *‘* is added first if the word ends in a vowel. Adding the suffix completes the syllable. Though I don’t give much weight to actors’ pronunciations, I will point out that Azetbur pronounces *vavoy* as *va-VOY.*
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
*From: *Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> *Sent: *Saturday, December 10, 2016 6:30 AM *To: *tlhingan-hol@kli.org *Subject: *Re: [tlhIngan Hol] How do you explain {'InSong} ?
It's worth stating that I don't believe the rules of Klingon syllable structure have ever been directly stated, but rather this is based on observation.
The majority of all cases can be described as such:
Every syllable begins with a consonant, followed by a vowel.
This may be (and usually is) followed by a consonant, or one of the three permissible terminal consonant clusters: -rgh, -w' or -y'.
No syllable ends on -ow, -ow', -uw or -uw'.
So single syllable options are:
CV - tI Do ta ...
CVC - batlh chuch por ...
CVrgh - 'argh burgh qorgh ...
CVw' - maw' law' ghaw' ... (interestingly, there don't appear to be any -ew' or -Iw' words)
CVy' - lay' loy' bey' ... (no known -Iy' examples)
After one of these, you are freee tonstart a new syllable, which may also follow any of these forms.
For example:
CVC-CVC - 'InSong, bobcho', lalDan
CV-CVC - lulIgh, qama'
CVC-CV - HaSta, yergho
CV-CV-CVC - verengan
CVC-CV-CVC - Ha'DIbaH
In the event where the forst syllable is simply CV (tera'ngan, lulIgh, bIreQtagh, ...), there may be room for interpretation where one syllable ends and the other ends. Normally, the CV syllable gets "swallowed", so that the two syllables almost sound like one; tera' sounds like "vra" and verengan sounds like "vrengan".
This confusion might also arise when using the -oy suffix. Is this the only syllable that can begin on a vowel? Or does it change the stress pattern of the word it's appended to in such a way that the syllable becomes -Coy? (for example, would jupoy be ju-poy, perhaps just ending up sounding like "jpoy"?)
There are still exceptions to these "rules", such as those seen in non-Klinogn names (qIrq, pIqarD, 'oqranD) and in no' Hol (paq'batlh, tog'det q'uti 'qoolit).
Best wishes,
loghaD (CV-CVC)
10 dec. 2016 kl. 11:27 skrev mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>:
lieven:
'-I-n = C-V-C S-o-ng = C-V-C Why the confusion?
according to the rule of cvc, how come that after the {n} the {S} follows ? this produces (cvccvc).
the rule refers to clusters of three (cvc-cvc-cvc), or does it go like (cvcvcvcvc..) ? so far I thought that according to this rule, right after a consonant always a vowel follows.
qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
On 10 Dec 2016 12:16 pm, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 10.12.2016 um 11:01 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
we are always saying that klingon phonology utilizes cvc. so, how do you explain {'InSong} ?
'-I-n = C-V-C S-o-ng = C-V-C
Why the confusion?
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Phonology _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
can I find somewhere the text of 'oqranD “Klingon 101” lecture ? I mean only the text; not the video. qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 10 Dec 2016 5:12 pm, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
is there a difference between the klingon syllable, and the english syllable ? what is the definition of a klingon syllable ?
qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
On 10 Dec 2016 3:48 pm, <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
“It's worth stating that I don't believe the rules of Klingon syllable structure have ever been directly stated, but rather this is based on observation”
In his recent “Klingon 101” lecture, Okrand explained the rules of a Klingon syllable, though I think he forgot to include final *rgh.*
“In the event where the forst syllable is simply CV (tera'ngan, lulIgh, bIreQtagh, ...), there may be room for interpretation where one syllable ends and the other ends. Normally, the CV syllable gets "swallowed", so that the two syllables almost sound like one; tera' sounds like "vra" and verengan sounds like "vrengan".
I don’t do this. I don’t think I’ve ever heard Okrand do this. Klingon doesn't schwa vowels the way English does. Where does this idea come from?
“This confusion might also arise when using the -oy suffix. Is this the only syllable that can begin on a vowel? Or does it change the stress pattern of the word it's appended to in such a way that the syllable becomes -Coy? (for example, would jupoy be ju-poy, perhaps just ending up sounding like "jpoy"?)”
*-oy* is not a syllable; it’s a suffix. It’s usually added to a word ending in a consonant, and TKD suggests that a *‘* is added first if the word ends in a vowel. Adding the suffix completes the syllable. Though I don’t give much weight to actors’ pronunciations, I will point out that Azetbur pronounces *vavoy* as *va-VOY.*
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
*From: *Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> *Sent: *Saturday, December 10, 2016 6:30 AM *To: *tlhingan-hol@kli.org *Subject: *Re: [tlhIngan Hol] How do you explain {'InSong} ?
It's worth stating that I don't believe the rules of Klingon syllable structure have ever been directly stated, but rather this is based on observation.
The majority of all cases can be described as such:
Every syllable begins with a consonant, followed by a vowel.
This may be (and usually is) followed by a consonant, or one of the three permissible terminal consonant clusters: -rgh, -w' or -y'.
No syllable ends on -ow, -ow', -uw or -uw'.
So single syllable options are:
CV - tI Do ta ...
CVC - batlh chuch por ...
CVrgh - 'argh burgh qorgh ...
CVw' - maw' law' ghaw' ... (interestingly, there don't appear to be any -ew' or -Iw' words)
CVy' - lay' loy' bey' ... (no known -Iy' examples)
After one of these, you are freee tonstart a new syllable, which may also follow any of these forms.
For example:
CVC-CVC - 'InSong, bobcho', lalDan
CV-CVC - lulIgh, qama'
CVC-CV - HaSta, yergho
CV-CV-CVC - verengan
CVC-CV-CVC - Ha'DIbaH
In the event where the forst syllable is simply CV (tera'ngan, lulIgh, bIreQtagh, ...), there may be room for interpretation where one syllable ends and the other ends. Normally, the CV syllable gets "swallowed", so that the two syllables almost sound like one; tera' sounds like "vra" and verengan sounds like "vrengan".
This confusion might also arise when using the -oy suffix. Is this the only syllable that can begin on a vowel? Or does it change the stress pattern of the word it's appended to in such a way that the syllable becomes -Coy? (for example, would jupoy be ju-poy, perhaps just ending up sounding like "jpoy"?)
There are still exceptions to these "rules", such as those seen in non-Klinogn names (qIrq, pIqarD, 'oqranD) and in no' Hol (paq'batlh, tog'det q'uti 'qoolit).
Best wishes,
loghaD (CV-CVC)
10 dec. 2016 kl. 11:27 skrev mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>:
lieven:
'-I-n = C-V-C S-o-ng = C-V-C Why the confusion?
according to the rule of cvc, how come that after the {n} the {S} follows ? this produces (cvccvc).
the rule refers to clusters of three (cvc-cvc-cvc), or does it go like (cvcvcvcvc..) ? so far I thought that according to this rule, right after a consonant always a vowel follows.
qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
On 10 Dec 2016 12:16 pm, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 10.12.2016 um 11:01 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
we are always saying that klingon phonology utilizes cvc. so, how do you explain {'InSong} ?
'-I-n = C-V-C S-o-ng = C-V-C
Why the confusion?
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Phonology _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 05:12:27PM +0200, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
is there a difference between the klingon syllable, and the english syllable ? what is the definition of a klingon syllable ?
Different languages have different rules as to the types of syllables that they allow. In English, you can have up to three consonants before the vowel and four afterwards (linguists would write that as CCCVCCCC). However, this does not mean that syllables with more consonants would be impossible to pronounce — only that they couldn't be English words. For example, the Russian word встреча "meeting" ("vstrecha" in teh Latin alphabet) begins with four consonants. Russians have no trouble pronouncing it, and English speakers can learn to pronounce it with practice — in fact, the only reason they have trouble with it at first is because they've never had to pronounce a syllable starting with that many consonants before. But that word couldn't be an English word, because it violates the rules of English syllable structure. In Klingon, the syllable structure rules are stricter. Syllables can really only be CV (one consonant followed by one vowel), CVC (one consonant, one vowel, and one more consonant), or CV{rgh, w', y'} (one consonant, one vowel, and one of the clusters {rgh}, {w'}, and {y'}). This doesn't mean that a Klingon would be incapable of pronouncing a word with more consonants on either side of the vowel, only that such a word couldn't be a native word in the Klingon language. It took me a very long time to wrap my head around the idea that some languages have seemingly-arbitrary restrictions on syllable structure, so don't worry if this feels confusin at first. You'll come to understand it eventually. -SapIr
Speaking of syllables, there are 2,541 possible syllables in Klingon. 1,814 have been used 3 of them will never be used. 724 of them are totally unused. Breaking down the used syllable count further we see that: 205 of them only occur as part of a multi-syllable word 30 of them are only used as affixes. 28 of them are only found in a name of a place 10 of them only occur in a person's name 7 of them are only used as the name of a sound/letter data obtained from yIH'a'na'
good. but what is the definition of the klingon syllable ? qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 10 Dec 2016 5:19 pm, "Michael Roney, Jr." <nahqun@gmail.com> wrote:
Speaking of syllables, there are 2,541 possible syllables in Klingon. 1,814 have been used 3 of them will never be used. 724 of them are totally unused.
Breaking down the used syllable count further we see that: 205 of them only occur as part of a multi-syllable word 30 of them are only used as affixes. 28 of them are only found in a name of a place 10 of them only occur in a person's name 7 of them are only used as the name of a sound/letter
data obtained from yIH'a'na'
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:19:50AM -0500, Michael Roney, Jr. wrote:
Speaking of syllables, there are 2,541 possible syllables in Klingon.
How did you arrive at that number? I'm getting 2625 = 21 initials X 5 vowels X (24 finals + null final).
1,814 have been used 3 of them will never be used.
Two of these are reminiscent of a common expletive referring to excrement. What's the third, though?
724 of them are totally unused.
Breaking down the used syllable count further we see that: 205 of them only occur as part of a multi-syllable word 30 of them are only used as affixes. 28 of them are only found in a name of a place 10 of them only occur in a person's name 7 of them are only used as the name of a sound/letter
data obtained from yIH'a'na'
Where/what is that? Google deletes the {qaghwI'mey}, so I'm having tribble finding it (/ducks). -SapIr
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:39 AM, kechpaja <kechpaja@comcast.net> wrote:
On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:19:50AM -0500, Michael Roney, Jr. wrote:
Speaking of syllables, there are 2,541 possible syllables in Klingon.
How did you arrive at that number? I'm getting 2625 = 21 initials X 5 vowels X (24 finals + null final).
Did you subtract the (ow, ow', uw, uw') endings?
1,814 have been used 3 of them will never be used.
Two of these are reminiscent of a common expletive referring to excrement. What's the third, though?
Qov http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/WordsWithoutMeaning
data obtained from yIH'a'na'
Where/what is that? Google deletes the {qaghwI'mey}, so I'm having tribble finding it (/ducks).
-SapIr
She's a who. (she's also a computational linguist) We were privately discussing Klingon syllables and this seemed like a good thread to share her findings.
On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:54:58AM -0500, Michael Roney, Jr. wrote:
On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:39 AM, kechpaja <kechpaja@comcast.net> wrote:
On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:19:50AM -0500, Michael Roney, Jr. wrote:
Speaking of syllables, there are 2,541 possible syllables in Klingon.
How did you arrive at that number? I'm getting 2625 = 21 initials X 5 vowels X (24 finals + null final).
Did you subtract the (ow, ow', uw, uw') endings?
No — that makes more sense now. I guess this leads to another question, though: do we actually have reason to assume that {-oy} can be a syllable in its own right? Based on the description given in KGT, I've always assumed that it was never intended to be a valid syllable on its own, but rather would adopt the final consonant of the preceding mopheme as its onset. Do we have any canon examples of {-oy} being attached to a word that ends in a vowel? - SapIr
(Sorry for the spam, SuStel; you'll be getting this message twice because I failed to Reply All. latlh qabDaq qul yIchenmoH HIvqa'DI' veqlargh.)
In his recent “Klingon 101” lecture, Okrand explained the rules of a Klingon syllable, though I think he forgot to include final rgh.
Ah, interesting; nice to have something firm to go on. I've been meaning to watch that, but haven't gotten around to it yet.
I don’t do this. I don’t think I’ve ever heard Okrand do this. Klingon doesn't schwa vowels the way English does. Where does this idea come from?
It's primarily my observation of how Marc pronounces words such as tera'ngan and Ha'DIbaH in Conversational Klingon, Power Klingon and the like. The vowels certainly aren't omitted or schwa'd; it's more like the vowel is shortened slightly and the brief pause between syllables that gives Klingon a bit of a choppy sound is omitted, allowing the syllables to flow seamlessly into each other.
-oy is not a syllable; it’s a suffix.
What I mean is, when appended to a word that end with a consonant, does that consonant stay part of the stem (CVC-oy) or does it "transfer" to the new syllable containing -oy (CV-Coy)? The va-VOY example - while, as you say, at least one step removed from Okrand's own mouth - seems to example that not only does it "break off" the final consonant, but it also gives stress to the syllable containing -oy, making it one (of quite a few) exception to the "last syllable of the stem unless there's a syllable ending with a glottal stop" stress rule of thumb. I wonder if this would still happen to a word ending in a glottal stop. It's also be interesting to know how words ending with one of the permitted consonant clusters are handled. If you call your sweetkins {burghoy}, do you pronounce it bur-GHOY, BUR-ghoy, BURGH-oy or burgh-OY? ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of kechpaja <kechpaja@comcast.net> Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2016 18:03 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] How do you explain {'InSong} ? On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:54:58AM -0500, Michael Roney, Jr. wrote:
On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:39 AM, kechpaja <kechpaja@comcast.net> wrote:
On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:19:50AM -0500, Michael Roney, Jr. wrote:
Speaking of syllables, there are 2,541 possible syllables in Klingon.
How did you arrive at that number? I'm getting 2625 = 21 initials X 5 vowels X (24 finals + null final).
Did you subtract the (ow, ow', uw, uw') endings?
No — that makes more sense now. I guess this leads to another question, though: do we actually have reason to assume that {-oy} can be a syllable in its own right? Based on the description given in KGT, I've always assumed that it was never intended to be a valid syllable on its own, but rather would adopt the final consonant of the preceding mopheme as its onset. Do we have any canon examples of {-oy} being attached to a word that ends in a vowel? - SapIr _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 10.12.2016 um 18:29 schrieb Felix Malmenbeck:
What I mean is, when appended to a word that end with a consonant, does that consonant stay part of the stem (CVC-oy) or does it "transfer" to the new syllable containing -oy (CV-Coy)?
Here we are only concerning the spoken sound I think. The point is, that if -oy is pronounced separate from the consonant, you must make a short break, a short stop - hence some kind of a glottal stop. One cannot say [CVC-oy] without getting [CVC-'oy] Compare {patoy} [PA-TOY] and {pat'oy} [PAT-OY]
The va-VOY example - while, as you say, at least one step removed from Okrand's own mouth -
Keep in mind its background, being a mispronunciation of {vavwI'}
If you call your sweetkins {burghoy}, do you pronounce it bur-GHOY, BUR-ghoy, BURGH-oy or burgh-OY?
When I say that, it's mostly BUR-ghoy. Indeed confirming what you said, but also because the reson I wrote above in the first line. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
Is there a chance of a link to a file with all these syllables listed according to the classifications listed below? Which are the 3 which will never be used, and for each, why? (I know about Qov, but which are the other two?) ----Original message----
From : nahqun@gmail.com Date : 10/12/2016 - 15:19 (GMTST) To : tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] How do you explain {'InSong} ? Speaking of syllables, there are 2,541 possible syllables in Klingon. 1,814 have been used 3 of them will never be used. 724 of them are totally unused. Breaking down the used syllable count further we see that: 205 of them only occur as part of a multi-syllable word 30 of them are only used as affixes. 28 of them are only found in a name of a place 10 of them only occur in a person's name 7 of them are only used as the name of a sound/letter data obtained from yIH'a'na'
On Dec 11, 2016 00:24, "Anthony Appleyard" <a.appleyard@btinternet.com> wrote: Which are the 3 which will never be used, and for each, why? (I know about Qov, but which are the other two?) *{pIS}, *{SIt} - puchDaq ba'... -- De'vID
On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 01:08:46AM +0100, De'vID wrote:
On Dec 11, 2016 00:24, "Anthony Appleyard" <a.appleyard@btinternet.com> wrote:
Which are the 3 which will never be used, and for each, why? (I know about Qov, but which are the other two?)
*{pIS}, *{SIt} - puchDaq ba'...
Wait, what about *{SI'}? That would have the exact same problem, given how English final /t/ is frequently realized as a glottal stop.
'ej {Say'} {Sayt} {DIq} je bIHtaH'a' DuH'e'? jIHvaD DIvI' Hol mu'qaDmey rurqu'. QImSIr On Saturday, December 10, 2016, kechpaja <kechpaja@comcast.net> wrote:
On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 01:08:46AM +0100, De'vID wrote:
On Dec 11, 2016 00:24, "Anthony Appleyard" <a.appleyard@btinternet.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
Which are the 3 which will never be used, and for each, why? (I know about Qov, but which are the other two?)
*{pIS}, *{SIt} - puchDaq ba'...
Wait, what about *{SI'}? That would have the exact same problem, given how English final /t/ is frequently realized as a glottal stop. _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org <javascript:;> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 12/10/2016 9:07 PM, Brian Cote wrote:
'ej {Say'} {Sayt} {DIq} je bIHtaH'a' DuH'e'? jIHvaD DIvI' Hol mu'qaDmey rurqu'.
*Say'* /be clean/ law' DuH. tetlh pup leH /Okrand/ 'e' vIpIHbe'.
QImSIr
On Saturday, December 10, 2016, kechpaja <kechpaja@comcast.net <mailto:kechpaja@comcast.net>> wrote:
On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 01:08:46AM +0100, De'vID wrote: > On Dec 11, 2016 00:24, "Anthony Appleyard" <a.appleyard@btinternet.com <javascript:;>> > wrote: > > Which are the 3 which will never be used, and for each, why? (I know about > Qov, but which are the other two?) > > > *{pIS}, *{SIt} - puchDaq ba'...
Wait, what about *{SI'}? That would have the exact same problem, given how English final /t/ is frequently realized as a glottal stop.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
/ha ha/ DaH jIyaj QImSIr On Saturday, December 10, 2016, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 12/10/2016 9:07 PM, Brian Cote wrote:
'ej {Say'} {Sayt} {DIq} je bIHtaH'a' DuH'e'? jIHvaD DIvI' Hol mu'qaDmey rurqu'.
*Say'* *be clean*
law' DuH. tetlh pup leH *Okrand* 'e' vIpIHbe'.
QImSIr
On Saturday, December 10, 2016, kechpaja <kechpaja@comcast.net <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','kechpaja@comcast.net');>> wrote:
On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 01:08:46AM +0100, De'vID wrote:
On Dec 11, 2016 00:24, "Anthony Appleyard" <a.appleyard@btinternet.com> wrote:
Which are the 3 which will never be used, and for each, why? (I know about Qov, but which are the other two?)
*{pIS}, *{SIt} - puchDaq ba'...
Wait, what about *{SI'}? That would have the exact same problem, given how English final /t/ is frequently realized as a glottal stop.
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
This sort of clash happens in real Slavonic languages, where the root "pis" means "write" and occurs in words meaning "letter" and "office" and suchlike. ----Original message----
From : de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com Date : 11/12/2016 - 00:08 (GMTST) To : tlhingan-hol@kli.org Cc : a.appleyard@btinternet.com Subject : Re: [tlhIngan Hol] How do you explain {'InSong} ? On Dec 11, 2016 00:24, "Anthony Appleyard" <a.appleyard@btinternet.com> wrote: Which are the 3 which will never be used, and for each, why? (I know about Qov, but which are the other two?) *{pIS}, *{SIt} - puchDaq ba'...
On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 6:24 PM, Anthony Appleyard < a.appleyard@btinternet.com> wrote:
Is there a chance of a link to a file with all these syllables listed
according to the classifications listed below?
I don't have a link, but I can send the file itself later on when I get home.
Seems like pIs and SIt are canceled for meaning somthing in english, but nobody thought about other languages. For instance, the word {ghIqtal} is never used by German Klingons because it is pronounced *exactly* like the German word for "rectal". Not a good word to yell during battle :-) -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher
Quvar:
For instance, the word {ghIqtal} is never used by German Klingons because it is pronounced *exactly* like the German word for "rectal". Not a good word to yell during battle :-)
hahaha ! pov ! 'a chaq chIch qaS ngoDvam.. DIvI' Hol /I'll f** you up/ rurmeH mu'vam tu'lu' ! tagh may', qIHchuq cha' SuvwI' 'ej SuvchoHpa' jatlhchuq: ghIqtal (=rectal=Sa'HutlIj vInga') ! hahaha ! 'ach DaH, maqID 'e' wImevchugh vaj vIt wItlhoj: latlh Holmey mu' Qut rurbogh mu' law''e' ghajba' tlhIngan Hol. DI'rujvam junlaHbe' vay'. Hoch HolmeyvaD qaS DI'rujvam. ghantoH: chalvaD *ουρανος* pong 'elaDya' Hol. yuQ permeH DIvI' Hol, mu'vamvaD /uranus/ mojmoH. 'a QIch rap ghaj /uranus/ /your anus/ je.. 'ej latlh ghantoH law' tu'lu'. jIbej. reH, latlh Hol 'op mu' Qut rur Hol 'op mu'. bej. meqvammo', mu' {pIS} {SIt} je vIlajQo'be'lu' net poQ. Hol wIlo'taHvIS Holvam neH qel yabmaj net 'utmoH. mu' {Qov}'e'.. rap vuDwIj. mu'vam wIvta'mo' nuv, lajQo' latlhpu' net poQ'a'. ghobe'. Hoch tlhIngan ngutlh mutlhchu'ghachmey DIlo' net chaw' net 'utmoH. qunnoH jan puqloD ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 11 Dec 2016 2:28 pm, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Seems like pIs and SIt are canceled for meaning somthing in english, but nobody thought about other languages.
For instance, the word {ghIqtal} is never used by German Klingons because it is pronounced *exactly* like the German word for "rectal".
Not a good word to yell during battle :-)
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
What are the three that will never be used? Tim Stoffel -- -----Original Message----- Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:19:50 -0500 Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] How do you explain {'InSong} ? To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org> Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org From: "Michael Roney, Jr." <nahqun@gmail.com> Speaking of syllables, there are 2,541 possible syllables in Klingon. 1,814 have been used 3 of them will never be used. 724 of them are totally unused. Breaking down the used syllable count further we see that: 205 of them only occur as part of a multi-syllable word 30 of them are only used as affixes. 28 of them are only found in a name of a place 10 of them only occur in a person's name 7 of them are only used as the name of a sound/letter data obtained from yIH'a'na' _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Tim Stoffel:
What are the three that will never be used?
{pIS}, {SIt} and {Qov} On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 9:10 AM, Tim Stoffel <tim@lionlamb.us> wrote:
What are the three that will never be used?
Tim Stoffel
--
-----Original Message-----
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:19:50 -0500 Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] How do you explain {'InSong} ? To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org> Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org From: "Michael Roney, Jr." <nahqun@gmail.com> Speaking of syllables, there are 2,541 possible syllables in Klingon. 1,814 have been used 3 of them will never be used. 724 of them are totally unused.
Breaking down the used syllable count further we see that: 205 of them only occur as part of a multi-syllable word 30 of them are only used as affixes. 28 of them are only found in a name of a place 10 of them only occur in a person's name 7 of them are only used as the name of a sound/letter
data obtained from yIH'a'na' _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 10.12.2016 um 11:27 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
according to the rule of cvc, how come that after the {n} the {S} follows ? this produces (cvccvc).
I still do not know why you are suddenly confused, why this word? See your own signature:
qunnoH jan puqloD
qun-noH jan puq-loD CVC-CVC CVC CVC-CVC
ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
ghogh-wIj Hab-lI'-vo' CVC-CVC CVC-CVC-CVC -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
participants (11)
-
Anthony Appleyard -
Brian Cote -
De'vID -
Felix Malmenbeck -
kechpaja -
Lieven -
mayqel qunenoS -
Michael Roney, Jr. -
SuStel -
sustel＠trimboli.name
-
Tim Stoffel