Klingon for "deference" (the legal term)?
Norwood v. Vance, 572 F. 3d 626, 630 (9th Cir. 2009) says: "The district court declined to give the proposed instruction because the meaning of deference would not be "clear to a lay person." But "deference" is not Urdu or Klingon; it is a common English word. See, e.g., Michael Crichton, Airframe 78 (1996) ("[S]he certainly knew where all the bodies were buried. Within the company, she was treated with a deference bordering on fear."). It may be true that deference has varied meanings, Dissent at 8515 n. 4, but so do most English words. If the district judge believed the term needed further context or definition, he could have provided it." dissent n. 4: "(I must, however, acknowledge that the majority is quite correct in intuiting that, unsurprisingly, there is no Klingon word for "deference." See generally Marc Okrand, THE KLINGON DICTIONARY (Star Trek 1992)" <https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=7908441514095692961> Black's Law Dictionary (9th Ed. 2009) defines: defer, vb. (17c) 2. To show deference to (another); to yield to the opinion of <because it was a political question, the courts deferred to the legislature>. due deference. The appropriate degree of respect with which a reviewing authority must consider the decision of a primary decision-maker. Chevron deference. A two-part test under which a court will uphold a federal agency's construction of a federal statute if (1) the statute is ambiguous or does not address the question at issue, and (2) the agency's interpretation of the statute is reasonable.• If the court finds that the legislature's intent is clearly expressed in the statute, then that intent is upheld. So: what, if anything, is Klingon for "deference"? If there isn't a word/phrase for it, and circumlocution would be culturally permitted, what would that be? Sincerely, Sai Founder, Language Creation Society
ngoy'moH make responsible latlhvaD wuqmeH Qu' nob. Give the task of deciding to another wuq latlh 'e' maS/poQ Prefer/require that another decide *x* vuD poQ Require the opinion of *x* Le jeu. 12 mars 2020, à 08 h 28, Sai <conlangs@saizai.com> a écrit :
Norwood v. Vance, 572 F. 3d 626, 630 (9th Cir. 2009) says:
"The district court declined to give the proposed instruction because the meaning of deference would not be "clear to a lay person." But "deference" is not Urdu or Klingon; it is a common English word. See, e.g., Michael Crichton, Airframe 78 (1996) ("[S]he certainly knew where all the bodies were buried. Within the company, she was treated with a deference bordering on fear."). It may be true that deference has varied meanings, Dissent at 8515 n. 4, but so do most English words. If the district judge believed the term needed further context or definition, he could have provided it."
dissent n. 4: "(I must, however, acknowledge that the majority is quite correct in intuiting that, unsurprisingly, there is no Klingon word for "deference." See generally Marc Okrand, THE KLINGON DICTIONARY (Star Trek 1992)"
<https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=7908441514095692961>
Black's Law Dictionary (9th Ed. 2009) defines:
defer, vb. (17c) 2. To show deference to (another); to yield to the opinion of <because it was a political question, the courts deferred to the legislature>.
due deference. The appropriate degree of respect with which a reviewing authority must consider the decision of a primary decision-maker.
Chevron deference. A two-part test under which a court will uphold a federal agency's construction of a federal statute if (1) the statute is ambiguous or does not address the question at issue, and (2) the agency's interpretation of the statute is reasonable.• If the court finds that the legislature's intent is clearly expressed in the statute, then that intent is upheld.
So: what, if anything, is Klingon for "deference"?
If there isn't a word/phrase for it, and circumlocution would be culturally permitted, what would that be?
Sincerely, Sai Founder, Language Creation Society
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 3/12/2020 9:27 AM, Sai wrote:
So: what, if anything, is Klingon for "deference"?
I don't have an answer, but some words to keep in mind include *ma'*/accommodate /*HeQ*/comply /*laj*/accept /*Qochbe'*/agree /*chaw'* /permit/ Maybe you could say something like this: *bo'DIj yoj wIlaj*/We accept the court's judgement /or *bo'DIj yoj wIma' */We will accommodate the court's judgment./ -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Two more verbs to consider: lob obey jegh surrender They also have a more “Klingon” feel to them. Voragh _________________________________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> On Behalf Of SuStel On 3/12/2020 9:27 AM, Sai wrote: So: what, if anything, is Klingon for "deference"? I don't have an answer, but some words to keep in mind include ma' accommodate HeQ comply laj accept Qochbe' agree chaw' permit Maybe you could say something like this: bo'DIj yoj wIlaj We accept the court's judgement or bo'DIj yoj wIma' We will accommodate the court's judgment. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
I'll leave it to experts of the English language to answer that question, because I'm not so sure about its meaning. But generally spoken, it's always a bit stupid to say "there is no Klingon word for X", because in many situations, there might indeed be no word, but it's still possible to express the same idea. A simple example is that there is no verb "love", but {muSHa'} perfectly conveys the idea. Regarding "reference", which seems to be some kind of respect, the first thing that comes to my mind is the verb {vuv} "respect", the verb {yI'} "speak in honorable fashion" and the noun {gha'tlhIq} "ode of respect". But I might be wrong ybput the definition of "reference", and I'm not a lawyer. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery Am 12.03.2020 um 14:27 schrieb Sai:
Norwood v. Vance, 572 F. 3d 626, 630 (9th Cir. 2009) says:
"The district court declined to give the proposed instruction because the meaning of deference would not be "clear to a lay person." But "deference" is not Urdu or Klingon; it is a common English word. See, e.g., Michael Crichton, Airframe 78 (1996) ("[S]he certainly knew where all the bodies were buried. Within the company, she was treated with a deference bordering on fear."). It may be true that deference has varied meanings, Dissent at 8515 n. 4, but so do most English words. If the district judge believed the term needed further context or definition, he could have provided it."
dissent n. 4: "(I must, however, acknowledge that the majority is quite correct in intuiting that, unsurprisingly, there is no Klingon word for "deference." See generally Marc Okrand, THE KLINGON DICTIONARY (Star Trek 1992)"
<https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=7908441514095692961>
Black's Law Dictionary (9th Ed. 2009) defines:
defer, vb. (17c) 2. To show deference to (another); to yield to the opinion of <because it was a political question, the courts deferred to the legislature>.
due deference. The appropriate degree of respect with which a reviewing authority must consider the decision of a primary decision-maker.
Chevron deference. A two-part test under which a court will uphold a federal agency's construction of a federal statute if (1) the statute is ambiguous or does not address the question at issue, and (2) the agency's interpretation of the statute is reasonable.• If the court finds that the legislature's intent is clearly expressed in the statute, then that intent is upheld.
So: what, if anything, is Klingon for "deference"?
If there isn't a word/phrase for it, and circumlocution would be culturally permitted, what would that be?
Sincerely, Sai Founder, Language Creation Society
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
In short, "deference" is used to refer to the level to which a court should let a prior decision or interpretation control, rather than deciding the question for itself. Here's an imaginary scenario that covers the two major forms: Suppose that Congress passes a law saying "no cars are allowed in national parks unless they pay a registration fee". It creates a National Park DMV to enforce this law. The NP-DMV issues a regulation saying that "car" means "any four wheeled vehicle not propelled by humans". An Amish horse-cart driver and an 8-wheel trucker both get fined by the NP-DMV driving those things in a national park without having paid. The court gives deference as follows: a) Chevron deference: if "non-human-propelled 4-wheel vehicle" is a reasonable interpretation of "car", then it gives deference to that interpretation, i.e. it uses that definition even if it would use a different definition if it were considering the matter itself. Therefore, the Amish driver has to pay, because the horse-cart isn't human-propelled (it's horse-propelled). I.e. the court "gives deference" to the agency's interpretation. b) Auer deference: if the application of the regulation is reasonable, it gives deference to that too; i.e. it uses the agency's factual determinations even if it would have arrived at a different conclusion given the evidence, unless it's contradictory Therefore, the trucker does not have to pay, because a big truck is not 4-wheeled. I.e. the court does not give deference to the agency's interpretation (because it's contradictory). It's always retrospective. It doesn't cover e.g. the court saying "I'm going to pass; agency, you decide this" or "hey agency what do you think" (though both would be *given* some level of deference once received, the request isn't considered to be part of it). Sincerely, Sai Founder, Language Creation Society ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Thursday, March 12, 2020 1:41 PM, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
I'll leave it to experts of the English language to answer that question, because I'm not so sure about its meaning.
But generally spoken, it's always a bit stupid to say "there is no Klingon word for X", because in many situations, there might indeed be no word, but it's still possible to express the same idea. A simple example is that there is no verb "love", but {muSHa'} perfectly conveys the idea.
Regarding "reference", which seems to be some kind of respect, the first thing that comes to my mind is the verb {vuv} "respect", the verb {yI'} "speak in honorable fashion" and the noun {gha'tlhIq} "ode of respect".
But I might be wrong ybput the definition of "reference", and I'm not a lawyer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
Am 12.03.2020 um 14:27 schrieb Sai:
Norwood v. Vance, 572 F. 3d 626, 630 (9th Cir. 2009) says: "The district court declined to give the proposed instruction because the meaning of deference would not be "clear to a lay person." But "deference" is not Urdu or Klingon; it is a common English word. See, e.g., Michael Crichton, Airframe 78 (1996) ("[S]he certainly knew where all the bodies were buried. Within the company, she was treated with a deference bordering on fear."). It may be true that deference has varied meanings, Dissent at 8515 n. 4, but so do most English words. If the district judge believed the term needed further context or definition, he could have provided it." dissent n. 4: "(I must, however, acknowledge that the majority is quite correct in intuiting that, unsurprisingly, there is no Klingon word for "deference." See generally Marc Okrand, THE KLINGON DICTIONARY (Star Trek 1992)" https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=7908441514095692961 Black's Law Dictionary (9th Ed. 2009) defines: defer, vb. (17c) 2. To show deference to (another); to yield to the opinion of <because it was a political question, the courts deferred to the legislature>. due deference. The appropriate degree of respect with which a reviewing authority must consider the decision of a primary decision-maker. Chevron deference. A two-part test under which a court will uphold a federal agency's construction of a federal statute if (1) the statute is ambiguous or does not address the question at issue, and (2) the agency's interpretation of the statute is reasonable.• If the court finds that the legislature's intent is clearly expressed in the statute, then that intent is upheld. So: what, if anything, is Klingon for "deference"? If there isn't a word/phrase for it, and circumlocution would be culturally permitted, what would that be? Sincerely, Sai Founder, Language Creation Society
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Combining this perspective with SuStel’s earlier suggestion, maybe something like: bo’DIj yoj wIpIHbogh wIma’. We accommodate what we expect to be the court’s judgement. Alternatively, to use a word with historically grammatical significance: bo’DIj naDHa’ghach wIjun. We evade the court’s disapproval. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Mar 12, 2020, at 10:21 AM, Sai <conlangs@saizai.com> wrote:
In short, "deference" is used to refer to the level to which a court should let a prior decision or interpretation control, rather than deciding the question for itself.
Here's an imaginary scenario that covers the two major forms:
Suppose that Congress passes a law saying "no cars are allowed in national parks unless they pay a registration fee". It creates a National Park DMV to enforce this law.
The NP-DMV issues a regulation saying that "car" means "any four wheeled vehicle not propelled by humans". An Amish horse-cart driver and an 8-wheel trucker both get fined by the NP-DMV driving those things in a national park without having paid.
The court gives deference as follows: a) Chevron deference: if "non-human-propelled 4-wheel vehicle" is a reasonable interpretation of "car", then it gives deference to that interpretation, i.e. it uses that definition even if it would use a different definition if it were considering the matter itself.
Therefore, the Amish driver has to pay, because the horse-cart isn't human-propelled (it's horse-propelled). I.e. the court "gives deference" to the agency's interpretation.
b) Auer deference: if the application of the regulation is reasonable, it gives deference to that too; i.e. it uses the agency's factual determinations even if it would have arrived at a different conclusion given the evidence, unless it's contradictory
Therefore, the trucker does not have to pay, because a big truck is not 4-wheeled. I.e. the court does not give deference to the agency's interpretation (because it's contradictory).
It's always retrospective. It doesn't cover e.g. the court saying "I'm going to pass; agency, you decide this" or "hey agency what do you think" (though both would be *given* some level of deference once received, the request isn't considered to be part of it).
Sincerely, Sai Founder, Language Creation Society
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Thursday, March 12, 2020 1:41 PM, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
I'll leave it to experts of the English language to answer that question, because I'm not so sure about its meaning.
But generally spoken, it's always a bit stupid to say "there is no Klingon word for X", because in many situations, there might indeed be no word, but it's still possible to express the same idea. A simple example is that there is no verb "love", but {muSHa'} perfectly conveys the idea.
Regarding "reference", which seems to be some kind of respect, the first thing that comes to my mind is the verb {vuv} "respect", the verb {yI'} "speak in honorable fashion" and the noun {gha'tlhIq} "ode of respect".
But I might be wrong ybput the definition of "reference", and I'm not a lawyer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
Am 12.03.2020 um 14:27 schrieb Sai:
Norwood v. Vance, 572 F. 3d 626, 630 (9th Cir. 2009) says: "The district court declined to give the proposed instruction because the meaning of deference would not be "clear to a lay person." But "deference" is not Urdu or Klingon; it is a common English word. See, e.g., Michael Crichton, Airframe 78 (1996) ("[S]he certainly knew where all the bodies were buried. Within the company, she was treated with a deference bordering on fear."). It may be true that deference has varied meanings, Dissent at 8515 n. 4, but so do most English words. If the district judge believed the term needed further context or definition, he could have provided it." dissent n. 4: "(I must, however, acknowledge that the majority is quite correct in intuiting that, unsurprisingly, there is no Klingon word for "deference." See generally Marc Okrand, THE KLINGON DICTIONARY (Star Trek 1992)" https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=7908441514095692961 Black's Law Dictionary (9th Ed. 2009) defines: defer, vb. (17c) 2. To show deference to (another); to yield to the opinion of <because it was a political question, the courts deferred to the legislature>. due deference. The appropriate degree of respect with which a reviewing authority must consider the decision of a primary decision-maker. Chevron deference. A two-part test under which a court will uphold a federal agency's construction of a federal statute if (1) the statute is ambiguous or does not address the question at issue, and (2) the agency's interpretation of the statute is reasonable.• If the court finds that the legislature's intent is clearly expressed in the statute, then that intent is upheld. So: what, if anything, is Klingon for "deference"? If there isn't a word/phrase for it, and circumlocution would be culturally permitted, what would that be? Sincerely, Sai Founder, Language Creation Society
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
*x* vuD wISov wIneH We wish (want) to know *x*'s opinion Does that work better? Other forms: *x *vuD vISov vIneH I want to know x's opinion *x *vuD DaSov DaneH You want to know x's opinion *x *vuD luSov luneH They want to know x's opinion *x *vuD boSov boneH Y'all want to know x's opinion *x *vuD DISov wIneH We want to know x's opinions Also, as has been pointed out, *you *might prove useful: noHwI'vetlh yoj wIpoQ We require that judge's judgement I don't think *ma' *is really useful in this context. Le jeu. 12 mars 2020, à 09 h 49, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> a écrit :
Combining this perspective with SuStel’s earlier suggestion, maybe something like:
bo’DIj yoj wIpIHbogh wIma’.
We accommodate what we expect to be the court’s judgement.
Alternatively, to use a word with historically grammatical significance:
bo’DIj naDHa’ghach wIjun.
We evade the court’s disapproval.
charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan
rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Mar 12, 2020, at 10:21 AM, Sai <conlangs@saizai.com> wrote:
In short, "deference" is used to refer to the level to which a court should let a prior decision or interpretation control, rather than deciding the question for itself.
Here's an imaginary scenario that covers the two major forms:
Suppose that Congress passes a law saying "no cars are allowed in national parks unless they pay a registration fee". It creates a National Park DMV to enforce this law.
The NP-DMV issues a regulation saying that "car" means "any four wheeled vehicle not propelled by humans". An Amish horse-cart driver and an 8-wheel trucker both get fined by the NP-DMV driving those things in a national park without having paid.
The court gives deference as follows: a) Chevron deference: if "non-human-propelled 4-wheel vehicle" is a reasonable interpretation of "car", then it gives deference to that interpretation, i.e. it uses that definition even if it would use a different definition if it were considering the matter itself.
Therefore, the Amish driver has to pay, because the horse-cart isn't human-propelled (it's horse-propelled). I.e. the court "gives deference" to the agency's interpretation.
b) Auer deference: if the application of the regulation is reasonable, it gives deference to that too; i.e. it uses the agency's factual determinations even if it would have arrived at a different conclusion given the evidence, unless it's contradictory
Therefore, the trucker does not have to pay, because a big truck is not 4-wheeled. I.e. the court does not give deference to the agency's interpretation (because it's contradictory).
It's always retrospective. It doesn't cover e.g. the court saying "I'm going to pass; agency, you decide this" or "hey agency what do you think" (though both would be *given* some level of deference once received, the request isn't considered to be part of it).
Sincerely, Sai Founder, Language Creation Society
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Thursday, March 12, 2020 1:41 PM, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
I'll leave it to experts of the English language to answer that question, because I'm not so sure about its meaning.
But generally spoken, it's always a bit stupid to say "there is no Klingon word for X", because in many situations, there might indeed be no word, but it's still possible to express the same idea. A simple example is that there is no verb "love", but {muSHa'} perfectly conveys the idea.
Regarding "reference", which seems to be some kind of respect, the first thing that comes to my mind is the verb {vuv} "respect", the verb {yI'} "speak in honorable fashion" and the noun {gha'tlhIq} "ode of respect".
But I might be wrong ybput the definition of "reference", and I'm not a lawyer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
Am 12.03.2020 um 14:27 schrieb Sai:
Norwood v. Vance, 572 F. 3d 626, 630 (9th Cir. 2009) says: "The district court declined to give the proposed instruction because the meaning of deference would not be "clear to a lay person." But "deference" is not Urdu or Klingon; it is a common English word. See, e.g., Michael Crichton, Airframe 78 (1996) ("[S]he certainly knew where all the bodies were buried. Within the company, she was treated with a deference bordering on fear."). It may be true that deference has varied meanings, Dissent at 8515 n. 4, but so do most English words. If the district judge believed the term needed further context or definition, he could have provided it." dissent n. 4: "(I must, however, acknowledge that the majority is quite correct in intuiting that, unsurprisingly, there is no Klingon word for "deference." See generally Marc Okrand, THE KLINGON DICTIONARY (Star Trek 1992)" https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=7908441514095692961 Black's Law Dictionary (9th Ed. 2009) defines: defer, vb. (17c) 2. To show deference to (another); to yield to the opinion of <because it was a political question, the courts deferred to the legislature>. due deference. The appropriate degree of respect with which a reviewing authority must consider the decision of a primary decision-maker. Chevron deference. A two-part test under which a court will uphold a federal agency's construction of a federal statute if (1) the statute is ambiguous or does not address the question at issue, and (2) the agency's interpretation of the statute is reasonable.• If the court finds that the legislature's intent is clearly expressed in the statute, then that intent is upheld. So: what, if anything, is Klingon for "deference"? If there isn't a word/phrase for it, and circumlocution would be culturally permitted, what would that be? Sincerely, Sai Founder, Language Creation Society
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
participants (6)
-
Jackson Bradley -
Lieven L. Litaer -
Sai -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel -
Will Martin