suffix {-jaj} with imperatives
Does it make sense to use {-jaj} with imperatives? Soj yItIvjaj may you enjoy the food! Although there's nothing grammatically wrong, something feels weird, but I can't understand what it is exactly that seems strange. -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
While no rule explicitly forbids this, I'm not sure this has any meaning. Imperatives are used for commands and {-jaj} for hopes and wishes. What is it you are hoping? What order are you giving? Is there a reason not to use {bI-} + {-jaj}? mISmoH mu'tlheghlIj. Iikka "fergusq" Hauhio https://klingonia.fi/en ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Thursday, January 20th, 2022 at 15.07, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Dana'an
https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/
Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 at 14:07, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Does it make sense to use {-jaj} with imperatives?
ghobe'.
Soj yItIvjaj may you enjoy the food!
{yI-} "A special set of prefixes is used for imperatives, that is, verbs giving commands. (TKD p.34) {-jaj} "This suffix is used to express a desire or wish on the part of the speaker that something take place in the future." (TKD p. 175) How can something be both a command and a wish? {Soj yItIv} "I command you to enjoy the food" {Soj DatIvjaj "I wish that you enjoy the food" *{Soj yItIvjaj} "I command I wish you to enjoy the food"? "I wish that I command that you enjoy the food"? Although there's nothing grammatically wrong, something feels weird,
but I can't understand what it is exactly that seems strange.
A sentence can be grammatically correct and also meaningless. What would a combination of {yI-} with {-jaj} mean? -- De'vID
fergusq:
mISmoH mu'tlheghlIj.
Yes, indeed. There's something which confuses me, but I can't understand what. De'vID:
What would a combination of {yI-} with {-jaj} mean?
I honestly don't know.. I was watching in a series a witch wishing evil to another. I thought that in order to translate the words of the witch to Klingon, one would naturally need to use the {-jaj}, but since the witch was saying the curse in "command-like" way, I started to wonder about whether one could use the combination of {-jaj} and an imperative prefix. -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
Agreed. So, what is a wish? Basically, it’s a secular prayer. Prayers and wishes are attempts to command God, the gods, or fate, or at the very least SUGGEST what it/they might cause to occur. Given the lack of feedback, you either think wishes or prayers to yourself or say them aloud to whomever might be listening, but the message is aimed at perhaps vaguely imaginary entities that cannot be directly experienced. A command does the same to the person(s) or sentient animal(s) you are speaking to. So, make up your mind whom you are speaking to. It doesn’t make rational sense to make the same suggestion to both gods and persons… Unless your meaning is really special, like: qoHvam chuS yItlheDmoHjaj jay'! [Would Fate, some god, or any person who can hear this please make this noisy fool go away?] pItlh charghwI’ ‘utlh (ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)
On Jan 20, 2022, at 8:20 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 at 14:07, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com <mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>> wrote: Does it make sense to use {-jaj} with imperatives?
ghobe'.
Soj yItIvjaj may you enjoy the food!
{yI-} "A special set of prefixes is used for imperatives, that is, verbs giving commands. (TKD p.34)
{-jaj} "This suffix is used to express a desire or wish on the part of the speaker that something take place in the future." (TKD p. 175)
How can something be both a command and a wish? {Soj yItIv} "I command you to enjoy the food" {Soj DatIvjaj "I wish that you enjoy the food" *{Soj yItIvjaj} "I command I wish you to enjoy the food"? "I wish that I command that you enjoy the food"?
Although there's nothing grammatically wrong, something feels weird, but I can't understand what it is exactly that seems strange.
A sentence can be grammatically correct and also meaningless. What would a combination of {yI-} with {-jaj} mean?
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 1/20/2022 8:20 AM, De'vID wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 at 14:07, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Does it make sense to use {-jaj} with imperatives?
ghobe'.
Soj yItIvjaj may you enjoy the food!
{yI-} "A special set of prefixes is used for imperatives, that is, verbs giving commands. (TKD p.34)
{-jaj} "This suffix is used to express a desire or wish on the part of the speaker that something take place in the future." (TKD p. 175)
How can something be both a command and a wish? {Soj yItIv} "I command you to enjoy the food" {Soj DatIvjaj "I wish that you enjoy the food" *{Soj yItIvjaj} "I command I wish you to enjoy the food"? "I wish that I command that you enjoy the food"?
Although there's nothing grammatically wrong, something feels weird, but I can't understand what it is exactly that seems strange.
A sentence can be grammatically correct and also meaningless. What would a combination of {yI-} with {-jaj} mean?
I agree, imperative *-jaj* makes no sense. Furthermore, mayqel may be misunderstanding /May you enjoy the food/ as an imperative. It's not; it's a subjunctive. There's no reason to force Klingon into the imperative to match the English, because the English is not in the imperative mood. /May you enjoy the food/ is simply *Soj DatIvjaj.* In English, it's subjunctive; in Klingon, it's indicative, unless you want to call *-jaj* the optative mood. Since *-jaj* is used on independent clauses and seems to be incompatible with the imperative mood in Klingon, I think there's a good argument to make that *-jaj* does, indeed, create a new mood in Klingon. (There is a similar argument to be made that Klingon also has an interrogative mood.) -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel:
Furthermore, mayqel may be misunderstanding May you enjoy the food as an imperative
Yes, indeed. Perhaps I was influenced by the way the witch in that series uttered the curse. It must have been the tone of her voice. It's like saying to someone "you want to go to leave the room?" (question), and "you *want* to leave the room", stressing the "want". So then it isn't a question anymore but something else. A statement perhaps? Maybe even a threat (given the right context)? Anyway, I understand now, so thanks for all the replies. -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
On 1/20/2022 9:29 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
It's like saying to someone "you want to go to leave the room?" (question), and "you *want* to leave the room", stressing the "want". So then it isn't a question anymore but something else. A statement perhaps? Maybe even a threat (given the right context)?
I'm speaking of linguistic moods, not intention. /Pass the salt/ is an imperative, whether you boldly command it /(Pass the salt!)/ or meekly ask /(Pass the salt?)./ By the way, here's a clip of someone saying /You want to leave this room/ as a statement. The stress is on /leave:/ https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/0f19c8d1-a8f7-427e-b059-e18b552962f6 -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Keep in mind that a witch is a fictitious character who lives in a world where communication with demons and spirits is on par with communication with a person, so the witch IS using the imperative because the witch commands the spirits. It’s not just a wish made vaguely toward the future. It’s a command toward a specific spirit.
On Jan 20, 2022, at 9:29 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
SuStel:
Furthermore, mayqel may be misunderstanding May you enjoy the food as an imperative
Yes, indeed. Perhaps I was influenced by the way the witch in that series uttered the curse. It must have been the tone of her voice.
It's like saying to someone "you want to go to leave the room?" (question), and "you *want* to leave the room", stressing the "want". So then it isn't a question anymore but something else. A statement perhaps? Maybe even a threat (given the right context)?
Anyway, I understand now, so thanks for all the replies.
-- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ <https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/> Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 1/20/2022 8:09 PM, Will Martin wrote:
Keep in mind that a witch is a fictitious character who lives in a world where communication with demons and spirits is on par with communication with a person, so the witch IS using the imperative because the witch commands the spirits. It’s not just a wish made vaguely toward the future. It’s a command toward a specific spirit.
No. "Imperative" has a specific grammatical meaning that has nothing to do with the force with which you insist on things or the authority with which you back up your demands. It is a grammatical mood. In English, "imperative" goes along with "indicative," "interrogative," "conditional," and "subjunctive." A humble worshiper of a deity saying, "Please, lord, tell me what to do" has just spoken in the imperative mood. A witch telling a demon "You will kill him" while pointing at a trussed-up victim has spoken in the indicative mood. If you tell someone who has just sneezed "Bless you," you have spoken in the subjunctive mood. It has nothing to do with the circumstances in which the words are uttered, who utters them, or anything like that. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
While you speak eloquently about linguistic moods, I completely understand you and agree with you. I said nothing about the force with which one insists on things or with whatever authority. A witch commands a demon to curse someone. She is giving the demon instructions, just like me telling you, “Close the door,” which is imperative. Imperative mood. If I say, “Curse my landlord!” given that I’m not saying it to anyone, but merely expressing a wish, I could see that as being linguistically different from a witch speaking to a demon, using the same words, definitely imperative. I’d be saying, “May it come to pass that my landlord be cursed!”, while the witch would be saying, “Hey! I’m talking to YOU. I want YOU to go curse my landlord. Cursing is your specialty, and I’m employing you to go do it." That’s all I meant. The witch isn't saying, “May this person be cursed,” which is not imperative, and is not addressed to any specific person. I think you say it’s subjunctive, and I’d agree. It’s remarkable how often you correct me, insisting that I’m saying something different from you when I’m not.
On Jan 20, 2022, at 8:50 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 1/20/2022 8:09 PM, Will Martin wrote:
Keep in mind that a witch is a fictitious character who lives in a world where communication with demons and spirits is on par with communication with a person, so the witch IS using the imperative because the witch commands the spirits. It’s not just a wish made vaguely toward the future. It’s a command toward a specific spirit.
No. "Imperative" has a specific grammatical meaning that has nothing to do with the force with which you insist on things or the authority with which you back up your demands. It is a grammatical mood. In English, "imperative" goes along with "indicative," "interrogative," "conditional," and "subjunctive."
A humble worshiper of a deity saying, "Please, lord, tell me what to do" has just spoken in the imperative mood. A witch telling a demon "You will kill him" while pointing at a trussed-up victim has spoken in the indicative mood. If you tell someone who has just sneezed "Bless you," you have spoken in the subjunctive mood. It has nothing to do with the circumstances in which the words are uttered, who utters them, or anything like that.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
participants (5)
-
De'vID -
Iikka Hauhio -
mayqel qunen'oS -
SuStel -
Will Martin