Sometimes my six-year-old joins me when I’m chatting with other Klingonists on a Discord ghogh qepHom. He doesn’t speak Klingon, but he can produce an amusing imitation of Klingon speech sounds. He also sometimes enjoys hearing people speak it and he enjoys asking questions and having me translate the questions into Klingon and their answers into English. (I think some of the beginners on the ghogh qepHommey also enjoy it when he’s on there, since they can check their understanding against the translations I do of what people are saying for his benefit.) His questions aren’t particularly interesting, usually “Daq DaDabbogh yIngu'”, “puqpu' Daghaj'a'?”, “puH Duj DaSeDbogh yIDel”, etc. Usually when he asks people about their cars, the color of the car is part of the answer, but recently it wasn’t, so he had a follow up question of “what color is it?” My first instinct on how to ask that question was “chay' nguv?” However, after I asked it that way, I immediately thought to myself that maybe that is asking about the means by which the car is colored (e.g. laSvarghDaq lunguvmoHpu' nguvmoHmeH qoqmey”) rather than its current state of coloration. So I reasked as “Doq'a'? SuD'a'? chIS'a'? qIj'a'?” I’m not very satisfied with either of those ways of asking what color something is, the first because I think it might actually be asking something else, and the second because asking four yes/no questions isn’t really the same as asking somebody to pick one of four choices (or a choice not covered by any of those four.) Besides, somebody could snarkily answer “HIja'” or “ghobe'” to the second way of asking and move on. Does anybody have any better ideas?
On 3/10/2019 9:32 PM, Daniel Dadap wrote:
“what color is it?”
My first instinct on how to ask that question was “chay' nguv?” However, after I asked it that way, I immediately thought to myself that maybe that is asking about the means by which the car is colored (e.g. laSvarghDaq lunguvmoHpu' nguvmoHmeH qoqmey”) rather than its current state of coloration.
It can't mean that; you'd have to ask *chay' nguvmoHlu'pu'* /how has one tinted it? /to get that.
So I reasked as “Doq'a'? SuD'a'? chIS'a'? qIj'a'?”
That's really awful. Your first instinct was correct. KGT tells us: There is, however, a verb, *nguv,* which means something like “be dyed, stained, tinted,” though it is seldom used except in the phrase *chay’ nguv* (“How is [it] tinted?”) or when suffixed with *-moH* (“cause”) in the form *nguvmoH *(“dye, tint, stain”; that is, “cause to be dyed,” etc.)... -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Mar 10, 2019, at 21:32, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
My first instinct on how to ask that question was “chay' nguv?” However, after I asked it that way, I immediately thought to myself that maybe that is asking about the means by which the car is colored (e.g. laSvarghDaq lunguvmoHpu' nguvmoHmeH qoqmey”) rather than its current state of coloration. It can't mean that; you'd have to ask chay' nguvmoHlu'pu' how has one tinted it? to get that.
Ah, cool. In English “how” can both ask a question of quality and a question of process (my own made up terminology; I’m sure there are better words I don’t know, or did know and have forgotten), and I wasn’t sure if {chay'} could also do both in Klingon. The examples for {chay'} in TKD 6.4 did not include any questions of quality. It makes sense that {chay'} with a verb of quality would form a question of quality, but form a question of process when {-moH} is added. At least that’s what I think your example with {chay' nguv} vs. {chay' nguvmoHlu'pu'} generalizes out to.
So I reasked as “Doq'a'? SuD'a'? chIS'a'? qIj'a'?” That's really awful.
Agreed.
KGT tells us:
D’oh; once again I failed to open a perfectly good book I have sitting on my shelf before asking the list. Apologies for the noise.
For all the things Klingon does well, it basically sucks at describing colors. My wife and I have discovered that when she grew up, she had the 50 crayon set, while I had the classic (for boys) 8 color crayon set, and so her world is full of colors like mauve, teal, and chartreuse, while mine is full of colors like blue, green and orange. I have learned to recognize the colors she describes with words I didn’t know until I was middle aged, but it brings me back to the NPR Radio Lab episode about color, where they pointed out that there are no ancient writings that use any word that translates to “blue” because the word had not been invented yet because they didn’t have blue pigment yet for paints or dyes. Basically, humans don’t develop color words for natural colors. As they invent artificial colors, they invent words to describe them. Before there was blue paint or dye, the sea was described as the color of dark wine and the sky was white. Helen of Troy’s eyes were grey. Apparently, Klingon kids grow up with two crayons, a dark pencil and a white page. They have color words for the four colors they paint things: Green, Red, Whiteand Black. I’ve built a couple of Bird of Prey models. That pretty much covers the spectrum (except for white, which isn’t really used in that context). Everything else’s color is described as “resembling” something with a natural color for which Klingon has no word. And since there are so few color words to choose from, why bother with a generic word for “color”? Just ask it like the joke: “Doq’a’?” You don’t have to ask {SuD’a’}. If it’s not {Doq}, it must be {SuD}, right? And if it’s neither, then it isn’t really a color. It’s just dark or light or it looks like something in nature for which there is no color word. This might be why the joke is considered funny to Klingons. Klingon armor, weapons, and blood are not red, so how could a warrior be red? It’s such a silly idea. Mwahahahahahahahahah... charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Mar 10, 2019, at 10:58 PM, Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net> wrote:
On Mar 10, 2019, at 21:32, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:
My first instinct on how to ask that question was “chay' nguv?” However, after I asked it that way, I immediately thought to myself that maybe that is asking about the means by which the car is colored (e.g. laSvarghDaq lunguvmoHpu' nguvmoHmeH qoqmey”) rather than its current state of coloration. It can't mean that; you'd have to ask chay' nguvmoHlu'pu' how has one tinted it? to get that.
Ah, cool. In English “how” can both ask a question of quality and a question of process (my own made up terminology; I’m sure there are better words I don’t know, or did know and have forgotten), and I wasn’t sure if {chay'} could also do both in Klingon. The examples for {chay'} in TKD 6.4 did not include any questions of quality.
It makes sense that {chay'} with a verb of quality would form a question of quality, but form a question of process when {-moH} is added. At least that’s what I think your example with {chay' nguv} vs. {chay' nguvmoHlu'pu'} generalizes out to.
So I reasked as “Doq'a'? SuD'a'? chIS'a'? qIj'a'?” That's really awful.
Agreed.
KGT tells us:
D’oh; once again I failed to open a perfectly good book I have sitting on my shelf before asking the list. Apologies for the noise. _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Mar 11, 2019, at 07:58, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote:
Klingon armor, weapons, and blood are not red
Klingon blood has been depicted as either magenta (in Star Trek VI, I believe to make the zero-G massacre scene on Kronos One less gory for the censors) or red (everywhere else as far as I can remember), both of which I think I’d call Doq. Which leads to an unrelated question, I wonder if purple is Doq or SuD. Sure, there’s many shades of purple, but I’d be curious if there’s a point on the color spectrum that about half of Klingons would call Doq and half would call SuD. Maybe even two points, one kind of purply one, and one kind of orangy-yellowy one.
On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 at 14:08, Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net> wrote:
On Mar 11, 2019, at 07:58, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote:
Klingon armor, weapons, and blood are not red
Klingon blood has been depicted as either magenta (in Star Trek VI, I believe to make the zero-G massacre scene on Kronos One less gory for the censors) or red (everywhere else as far as I can remember), both of which I think I’d call Doq.
Which leads to an unrelated question, I wonder if purple is Doq or SuD. Sure, there’s many shades of purple, but I’d be curious if there’s a point on the color spectrum that about half of Klingons would call Doq and half would call SuD. Maybe even two points, one kind of purply one, and one kind of orangy-yellowy one.
When a Klingon sees a colour half-way between {Doq} and {SuD}, does s/he say {DuD}? {DuuuuuuD}. -- De'vID
On Mar 11, 2019, at 08:18, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
When a Klingon sees a colour half-way between {Doq} and {SuD}, does s/he say {DuD}? {DuuuuuuD}.
Perhaps, to refer to the mixing of colors. But everybody knows that the Klingon word for “dude” is “we squeeze (into a space)”: https://twitter.com/dapdaptuq/status/1104477894435319808
On 3/11/2019 9:08 AM, Daniel Dadap wrote:
Which leads to an unrelated question, I wonder if purple is Doq or SuD. Sure, there’s many shades of purple, but I’d be curious if there’s a point on the color spectrum that about half of Klingons would call Doq and half would call SuD. Maybe even two points, one kind of purply one, and one kind of orangy-yellowy one.
KGT says that neither *Doq* nor *SuD* include violet or purple, and suggests without stating outright that this may be related to the Klingon visual range. TalkNow! translates /purple/ as *Doq 'ej SuD.* Whether this is an actual Klingon phrase or a cop-out by a Klingon who could only intellectually understand what purple is without seeing it is not told. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Mar 11, 2019, at 08:39, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
KGT says that neither Doq nor SuD include violet or purple, and suggests without stating outright that this may be related to the Klingon visual range.
Blargh. Clearly I need to re-read KGT. Thanks. Maybe purple is just “ultra-{SuD}” then.
On 3/11/2019 8:58 AM, Will Martin wrote:
Basically, humans don’t develop color words for natural colors. As they invent artificial colors, they invent words to describe them. Before there was blue paint or dye, the sea was described as the color of dark wine and the sky was white. Helen of Troy’s eyes were grey.
Apparently, Klingon kids grow up with two crayons, a dark pencil and a white page.
While your history of the invention of the color-word /blue/ is essentially correct, it does not apply to every language. There are languages that exist which do not have dedicated words for certain colors, and yet the native speakers of those languages can make use of those colors just fine. English, for instance, has eleven basic color terms, but that doesn't stop Crayola from producing a box of 120 different crayon colors. We create compound terms to describe various shades of a basic color. When your language has fewer basic color terms, you don't see fewer colors; you just classify them differently. You can recognize all the same shades of colors; you just need to use more compound terms to zero in on them. And speakers of languages with fewer color terms have one advantage: when they don't need to be exact, they don't have to be. Klingon poets, for instance, can see the sun in the sky and describe a *jul SuD* in a *chal SuD,* a parallel no English-speaking poet could make. They recognize that it's a *SuDbogh jul 'ej wovbogh* in a *chal SuDqu'* (the skies of Kronos are usually depicted as green — and the fact that I have to clarify this demonstrates my point perfectly), but they don't need to say all that. They're both*SuD.*
And since there are so few color words to choose from, why bother with a generic word for “color”? Just ask it like the joke: “Doq’a’?”
(A) Because Okrand told us how they do it: *chay' nguv?* (B) Because sometimes you do care about shades, and *Doq'a'* doesn't allow you to drill down that far. (C) Because receiving a wink and a joke answer to a serious question is irritating.
You don’t have to ask {SuD’a’}. If it’s not {Doq}, it must be {SuD}, right? And if it’s neither, then it isn’t really a color. It’s just dark or light or it looks like something in nature for which there is no color word.
*qIj* and *SuD* are color words too. Shades of black and white are colors. Those four words apparently cover the entire range of the Klingon visual spectrum, and anything in nature will fall into one of those.
This might be why the joke is considered funny to Klingons. Klingon armor, weapons, and blood are not red, so how could a warrior be red? It’s such a silly idea. Mwahahahahahahahahah...
The joke is not asking if warriors are red, but if warriors are *Doq.* Klingon blood is *Doq,* as are "nearly all Klingon bodily fluids" (KGT). -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Mar 11, 2019, at 08:34, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
The joke is not asking if warriors are red, but if warriors are Doq.
There could be an unknown non-stative verb {Doq}. If the punchline has a double meaning of “no, they are {SuD} (the color term)” vs. “no, they {SuD} (gamble, take a risk)”, it’s possible that the joke question also has a double meaning we’re unaware of. In which case the joke might not only be asking “*Are* warriors {Doq}?” but possibly also “*Do* warriors {Doq}?”.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 11, 2019, at 08:58, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote:
They have color words for the four colors they paint things: Green, Red, Whiteand Black. I’ve built a couple of Bird of Prey models. That pretty much covers the spectrum (except for white, which isn’t really used in that context). Everything else’s color is described as “resembling” something with a natural color for which Klingon has no word.
This is how many English colour words are derived as well — being the name of the thing that is that colour: orange (fruit), violet, rose, pink, indigo (flowers), olive (fruit), gold (metal), teal (bird), chartreuse (drink)… Klingon really isn’t that different IMO.
participants (5)
-
Daniel Dadap -
De'vID -
Jeffrey Clark -
SuStel -
Will Martin