'e', net, -Daq speculation
Savan, tlhIngan Hol jatlhwI'pu'! I have been wondering for a couple of days now whether the sentence pronouns {'e'} and {net} might take the noun suffix {-Daq} to refer to the location where the previous sentence took place. From the TKD, as far as I can tell nothing explicitly prohibits adding any suffix to these pronouns - only their usage in sentence-as-object constructions is described, but if you consider that the TKD only gives a grammatical outline of Klingon, well then maybe other kinds of usage also exist. Imagine if we could write: (?) {paq laD HoD, 'e'Daq jIba'} = I sit where the captain read the book (?) {Hegh Subvam netDaq jaHQo'} = the place where this hero died is avoided like the plague What do you think? Does it seem to make sense to you the same way it does for me? ghItlhjaj Envoyé depuis mon smartphone Samsung Galaxy.
On 4/29/2018 3:12 PM, demonchaux.aurelie wrote:
Savan, tlhIngan Hol jatlhwI'pu'!
I have been wondering for a couple of days now whether the sentence pronouns {'e'} and {net} might take the noun suffix {-Daq} to refer to the location where the previous sentence took place.
From the TKD, as far as I can tell nothing explicitly prohibits adding any suffix to these pronouns - only their usage in sentence-as-object constructions is described, but if you consider that the TKD only gives a grammatical outline of Klingon, well then maybe other kinds of usage also exist.
Imagine if we could write: (?) {paq laD HoD, 'e'Daq jIba'} = I sit where the captain read the book
(?) {Hegh Subvam netDaq jaHQo'} = the place where this hero died is avoided like the plague
What do you think? Does it seem to make sense to you the same way it does for me?
My objection would be that you're not saying /I sit where the captain reads the book;/ you're saying /I sit at the captain reads the book./ *'e'Daq* would not take place at the location of the previous sentence; it says the previous sentence IS a location, which seems meaningless to me. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Maybe I'm being influenced by English here. In English, demonstrative words typically begin with "th-": this, that, those, the... every time, the "th-" signifies that a reference is made to something already known. To refer to an already known place in English, you sort of "merge" "th(at)" + "(wh)ere" and get "there" Since in Klingon, {'e'} and {net} also mean a reference to an already-known element (in standard usage, the preceding sentence), and {-Daq} refers to a location (sort of like "where"), putting them together might amount to merging "that + where" as in English, thus getting: (?){'e'Daq} / (?){netDaq} = thereat / there where (the action took place). I still think it would be a neat way to solve the problem of complex relative clauses in the case of locatives. But really, maybe it would be best to just ask Maltz, though from what I've seen the chabal tetlh for the next qep'a' is already huge. ghItlhjaj 2018-04-29 23:09 GMT+02:00 SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>:
On 4/29/2018 3:12 PM, demonchaux.aurelie wrote:
Savan, tlhIngan Hol jatlhwI'pu'!
I have been wondering for a couple of days now whether the sentence pronouns {'e'} and {net} might take the noun suffix {-Daq} to refer to the location where the previous sentence took place.
From the TKD, as far as I can tell nothing explicitly prohibits adding any suffix to these pronouns - only their usage in sentence-as-object constructions is described, but if you consider that the TKD only gives a grammatical outline of Klingon, well then maybe other kinds of usage also exist.
Imagine if we could write: (?) {paq laD HoD, 'e'Daq jIba'} = I sit where the captain read the book
(?) {Hegh Subvam netDaq jaHQo'} = the place where this hero died is avoided like the plague
What do you think? Does it seem to make sense to you the same way it does for me?
My objection would be that you're not saying *I sit where the captain reads the book;* you're saying *I sit at the captain reads the book.* *'e'Daq* would not take place at the location of the previous sentence; it says the previous sentence IS a location, which seems meaningless to me.
-- SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
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On 4/30/2018 4:46 AM, Aurélie Demonchaux wrote:
Maybe I'm being influenced by English here.
In English, demonstrative words typically begin with "th-": this, that, those, the... every time, the "th-" signifies that a reference is made to something already known.
To refer to an already known place in English, you sort of "merge" "th(at)" + "(wh)ere" and get "there"
/There/ is not a combination of /that/ and /where./ Old English /þær /"in or at that place," from Proto-Germanic */thær /(cf. Old Saxon /thar/, Old Frisian /ther/, Middle Low German /dar/, Middle Dutch /daer/, Dutch /daar/, Old High German /dar/, German /da/, Gothic /þar/, Old Norse /þar/), from PIE */tar/- "there" (cf. Sanskrit /tar-hi/ "then"), from root */to/- (see the ) + adverbial suffix -/r/. <http://www.dictionary.com/browse/there?r=75&src=ref&ch=dic>
Since in Klingon, {'e'} and {net} also mean a reference to an already-known element (in standard usage, the preceding sentence), and {-Daq} refers to a location (sort of like "where"), putting them together might amount to merging "that + where" as in English, thus getting: (?){'e'Daq} / (?){netDaq} = thereat / there where (the action took place).
I still think it would be a neat way to solve the problem of complex relative clauses in the case of locatives.
But really, maybe it would be best to just ask Maltz, though from what I've seen the chabal tetlh for the next qep'a' is already huge.
We already did ask Maltz, or at least Okrand. He replied that he couldn't get it to work. <http://klingonska.org/canon/1995-06-holqed-04-2-a.txt> -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
{'e'} refers to the earlier sentence, which is basically an action (or state). It is not a location. If you want to talk about the place where the action occurs, don't use {'e'}. Use {pa'}. [vogh] paq laDta' HoD. pa' jIba'. -- ghunchu'wI'
participants (4)
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Alan Anderson -
Aurélie Demonchaux -
demonchaux.aurelie
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SuStel