difference between someone somebody and vay'
In English you have "someone" and "somebody". In the alien language of Klingon (which is so alien that is crawling with terran puns), we have: {vay'} (n) "somebody, something, anybody, anything". Now, in this page: https://www.learnersdictionary.com/qa/difference-between-someone-and-somebod... We read the following: ***** quote start ***** Someone and somebody are both pronouns that are used to refer a person who is not known or specified. In most contexts, they are interchangeable. The only difference that most native speakers can agree upon is that someone is more formal than somebody (just as anyone is more formal than anybody, and everyone is more formal than everybody). This means that in a sentence like the one below, used in a legal context, someone is a much more likely choice than somebody. The bank requires that the deed be signed by someone authorized by the courts. It’s also interesting to note that someone is used more frequently than somebody, according to the data that we have on language use. ***** quote end ***** One could wonder, whether in the alien language of Klingon (which is so alien that is crawling with terran puns), the {vay'} has the same "informal" character as in English. On the other hand though, perhaps we shouldn't draw conclusions with regards to Klingon based on observations from English. It's such an alien language after all.. ~ Dana'an Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites..
On 3/30/2021 7:57 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
In English you have "someone" and "somebody".
In the alien language of Klingon (which is so alien that is crawling with terran puns), we have: {vay'} (n) "somebody, something, anybody, anything".
Now, in this page: https://www.learnersdictionary.com/qa/difference-between-someone-and-somebod...
We read the following:
***** quote start ***** ***** quote end *****
One could wonder, whether in the alien language of Klingon (which is so alien that is crawling with terran puns), the {vay'} has the same "informal" character as in English.
Wait, you're suggesting that *vay'* is informal because Okrand mentioned the word /somebody/ in the gloss but not the word /someone?/ That doesn't make any sense on many levels. Here's one: if *vay'* is informal, what's the formal version? Okrand wasn't looking for every synonym for /somebody/ when he wrote that gloss. Since /somebody/ and /someone /are more or less interchangeable, he just included one of them. I have no doubt any data about /someone/ being used more often in formal contexts never even crossed his mind when he wrote it. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
jIH:
One could wonder, whether in the alien language of Klingon (which is so alien that is crawling with terran puns), the {vay'} has the same "informal" character as in English. SuStel: Wait, you're suggesting that vay' is informal because Okrand mentioned the word somebody in the gloss but not the word someone?
No, not at all! The "which is so alien that is crawling with terran puns" part of the sentence was written, because I was fed up by all the "klingon-alien-language" crap. It wasn't my intention to imply that because there are a ton of terran puns, we need to attribute to the {vay'} conclusions drawn from English. Sorry for not clarifying this from the start. It's just that my disgust for all this "alien crap" bled through to the original post. ~ Dana'an
Am 30.03.2021 um 15:09 schrieb SuStel:
Okrand wasn't looking for every synonym for /somebody/ when he wrote that gloss. Since /somebody/ and /someone /are more or less interchangeable, he just included one of them.
I found one canon example showing that Okrand exchanged those words without thinking of the difference: naDev vay' DaSov'a'? Do you know anyone here? (CK) If there were an important difference, this should be "Do you know ANYBODY here?" -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/ConversationalKlingon
At the core of this apparent difference in English, we simply don’t know almost nothing about formality in Klingon. One assumes that Clipped Klingon is not formal. One assumes that the honorific {-neS} is formal. One assumes that labeled slang is informal. That’s about all that I personally feel safe to assume about formality in the Klingon language, except where context suggests formality. In the third movie, after Kruge had disintegrated his first gunner for blowing up a ship he was ordered to target “engines only”, and disobeyed to the point of saying that destroying the ship was just a lucky hit (probably an informal reply), I’m pretty sure that when he later gave an order to his replacement gunner and asked him if he understood (probably formal), that gunner’s reply, {HIja’ qaH} was probably pretty formal. Also, Kruge’s “You will be remembered honorably” to Valkris was probably formal. Her bow while acknowledging that she understood was also fairly obviously formal. Still, it’s situational more than choice of grammar or vocabulary that usually implies any level of formality, so far as I can tell most of the time. {qaH} is probably used formally, most of the time. There’s a hint there. As I understand it, Japanese is, in terms of the minimalist syllable structure and straightforward grammar, one of the simplest languages on Earth, but the subtleties of formality make it remarkably difficult for outsiders to master. I could try to learn Japanese and make all kinds of assumptions about formality and probably be wrong most of the time. While some may be bothered by the “crap” about Klingon being an alien language, … well… it’s an alien language. Why are you learning an alien language if you don’t like dealing with crap about an alien language? charghwI’ ‘utlh (ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)
On Mar 30, 2021, at 11:00 AM, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 30.03.2021 um 15:09 schrieb SuStel:
Okrand wasn't looking for every synonym for /somebody/ when he wrote that gloss. Since /somebody/ and /someone /are more or less interchangeable, he just included one of them.
I found one canon example showing that Okrand exchanged those words without thinking of the difference:
naDev vay' DaSov'a'? Do you know anyone here? (CK)
If there were an important difference, this should be "Do you know ANYBODY here?"
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/ConversationalKlingon _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 3/30/2021 12:27 PM, Will Martin wrote:
At the core of this apparent difference in English, we simply don’t know almost nothing about formality in Klingon.
One assumes that Clipped Klingon is not formal. One assumes that the honorific {-neS} is formal. One assumes that labeled slang is informal.
That’s about all that I personally feel safe to assume about formality in the Klingon language, except where context suggests formality.
I agree with your estimations of Clipped Klingon, honorific, and slang. However, I think we know a bit more than that. According to KGT... The word *ra'wI'* can be used informally as a title for anyone who gives orders, but in formal situations you would use the person's correct title. Young Klingons who usually speak with slang will still speak formally in formal situations. Always speaking formally does not mark one as out of touch, just very traditional. The erroneous omission of *lu-* is usually overlooked, except in formal situations. Ritualized speech that must be said a certain way and does not change with the language are, while they are still grammatical, considered highly formal examples of Standard Klingon. A formal way to give someone's name is to state the given name plus the father's name, as in *tI'vIS barot puqloD* /(T'vis, son of Barot)./ It is also formal to name someone just as someone's son or daughter, as in *mogh puqloD.* According to a newsgroup post, an even more formal way to state someone's name is like this: *qeylor qeylIn puqloD molor tuq*/Kahlor, son of Kahlin, House of Molor./ An even more formal way than that is to state *tay' qeylor molor tuq je*/Kahlor is from the House of Molor./ According to an email to De'vID, who was asking about plurals, *SuvwI' legh HoD SoH je* may occur in informal conversation, while in formal writing you'd need to say *SuvwI' bolegh SoH HoD je.* This was an example of adding new information while in the middle of speaking, so the prefix was wrong, but the speaker just went on. You wouldn't do that in formal writing. According to another email to De'vID (I think), *lojmItjaj*/Saturday/ is used for more formal occasions than *ghInjaj*/Saturday,/ though the two words are otherwise interchangeable. That's what I found simply searching my sources for the word /formal./ There is undoubtedly more when you consider synonyms.
In the third movie, after Kruge had disintegrated his first gunner for blowing up a ship he was ordered to target “engines only”, and disobeyed to the point of saying that destroying the ship was just a lucky hit (probably an informal reply),
The reply was *bach Do', qaH!*/A lucky shot, sir!/ Just a noun phrase and an attribution, not a complete sentence. Seems informal to me.
I’m pretty sure that when he later gave an order to his replacement gunner and asked him if he understood (probably formal), that gunner’s reply, {HIja’ qaH} was probably pretty formal.
Both question and response were informal and mostly Clipped. Kruge: *baHwI', DoS yIbuS, QuQ neH. yaj'a'? *Gunner #2: *yajchu', qaH.*
Also, Kruge’s “You will be remembered honorably” to Valkris was probably formal. Her bow while acknowledging that she understood was also fairly obviously formal.
Might be. I don't automatically assume that something heartfelt has to be formal. I don't agree that it's obvious. He does use complete sentence, but using a complete sentence is not necessarily done because of formality.
Still, it’s situational more than choice of grammar or vocabulary that usually implies any level of formality, so far as I can tell most of the time. {qaH} is probably used formally, most of the time. There’s a hint there.
Nope. Used in Clipped sentences all over /Star Trek III./
While some may be bothered by the “crap” about Klingon being an alien language, … well… it’s an alien language. Why are you learning an alien language if you don’t like dealing with crap about an alien language?
It's a constructed language for a fictional alien culture. As such, the only valid appeals to cultural issues within the language are those which call upon the fiction. And because language is usually tied so heavily to culture, one can be frustrated when others call upon cultural traits to interpret the language where those cultural traits don't come from the fiction that one accepts. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
mayqel, sometimes {vay'} isn't translated by "someone/anyone" or "something/anything" at all: qeylIS'e' lIjlaHbe'bogh vay' Kahless the Unforgettable (S8) vay' DaneHbogh yIchargh Conquer what you desire. (TKW) vay' DaghIjlaHchugh bIHoSghaj Fear is power. (TKW) batlh Heghlu'chugh noDnISbe' vay' An honorable death requires no vengeance. (TKW) vay' DalarghDI' yIqaw Remember the scent. (TKW) pIj monchugh vay' yIvoqQo' Don't trust those who frequently smile. (TKW) chIch vay' 'oy'moHmeH 'oy'naQ 'ul law' tlhuD 'oH Painstiks... emit a highly-charged shock for the express purpose of inflicting pain. (S32) HoSHal ghajchugh vay', mI' naghmey tIronmoH. wa'maHlogh boq'egh mI' naghmey; chen qav'ap. ghajwI'vaD qav'ap yIDIl. If [energy source is] owned, throw dice and pay owner a total ten times amount shown. (MKE) Duj ghajchugh vay', cha'logh boq'egh qav'ap motlh; chen qav'ap le'. ghajwI'vaD qav'ap le' yIDIl. If [ship is] owned, pay owner twice the rental to which they are otherwise entitled. (MKE) yab matlh muvchuqghach Sorgh vay' 'e' vIbotjaj. Let me not to the marriage of true minds admit impediments. (Sonnet 116) -- Voragh ---------------------------------------------Original Message---------------------------------------- From: Lieven L. Litaer Am 30.03.2021 um 15:09 schrieb SuStel:
Okrand wasn't looking for every synonym for /somebody/ when he wrote that gloss. Since /somebody/ and /someone /are more or less interchangeable, he just included one of them.
I found one canon example showing that Okrand exchanged those words without thinking of the difference: naDev vay' DaSov'a'? Do you know anyone here? (CK) If there were an important difference, this should be "Do you know ANYBODY here?"
voragh quoting tkw:
pIj monchugh vay' yIvoqQo' Don't trust those who frequently smile. (TKW)
Initially, reading the English translation, I was enthusiastic thinking I found an example where the {vay'} is translated as plural. But then I read the {yI-} on the Klingon sentence, and my enthusiasm went out the window. charghwI':
Why are you learning an alien language if you don’t like dealing with crap about an alien language?
vabDot not 'elaDya' tIQ Suchpu'chugh vay', 'elaDya' Hol tIQ ghojlaH nuvvam.. ~ Dana'an
charghwI':
Why are you learning an alien language if you don’t like dealing with crap about an alien language?
'op ben, taghwI' jIHtaHvIS, muqaDtaH 'op, 'ej muberghmoHtaH. muberghmoHmeH, ngugh chIch vangtaH. 'a ngugh pagh tlhIngan Hol vIlo'laHmo', jIpuj.. 'a DaH, pImchu' ghu', 'ej taghwI' jIHbe'. So, now, I need to return the favor.. You think I've forgotten? (vaj DaH chaHvaD jaSHa' jIvangnIS.. jIlIjpu' 'e' DaHar'a'?) ~ Dana'an
vogh Devil mojlu' qatlh neH vay? chaq QuchHa’lu'pu’? For clarity, I’d expect {Quchbe’} to be “unhappy” while {QuchHa’} would be to somehow have failed to achieve happiness in the same way that misunderstanding something fails to understand it. I do not mean it in the simpler sense of having formerly been happy and having somehow undone the state of happiness. pIvlu’DI’ yab Quchlu’ net Sam. pIvbe’DI’ yab, latlh potlh law’ QuchtaHghach potlh puS. charghwI’ ‘utlh (ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)
On Apr 1, 2021, at 3:52 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
ghunchu'wI':
ngoqlIj vInaDQo' 'a bIchavbejtaH.
Better to be the Devil in a community, than one of its' Scribes and Pharisees.
nughDaq devil scribe pharisee ghap mojlaHchugh vay', devil mojchugh, qaq.
~ Dana'an _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
choyajHa’ba’, ‘ach choyajchu’ ‘e’ DaHarlaw’. chotIch DaneH’a'? jISaHbe’. Qun Dayaj ‘e’ DaHarchugh, ghaytan Hoch Dayajchu' ‘e’ DaHar, vaj bIghojlaHbe’. muDelDI’ “straw man” DaDel. bIQeqHa’. Sor Hap non yIquHQo’ ‘e’ qeS Confucius. ghaytan qeSchu’ta'. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Apr 1, 2021, at 12:24 PM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
charghwI':
vogh Devil mojlu' qatlh neH vay?
SoHvaD devil QunQeD vIQIjlaH, 'a lalDan lubopbogh ja'chuqghach'e' DaSIQlaHbe'.
Hom Somraw je neH ghaH Human'e' 'e' DaHarlaw'; porgh Dab pagh qa' 'e' DaHarlaw' je.
vaj qa' bopbogh De' yIpoQQo'.
~ Dana'an _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
charghwI', SoHvaD qay' wa': juppu'lI' (po'wI'pu'qoqvam..) vIquvmoHQo'. 'a vay'vam yIyajchu': not po'wI'pu'qoqvam vIquvmoHpu'. 'ej *not* po'wI'pu'qoqvam vIvuvchoH. ghu'vam yIbItlh. ~ Dana'an
ghaytan qayaj. pIj QIntetlhvamDaq tIchchuq nuvpu’ ‘ej jaghpu’ moj Sovchuqbe’bogh nuvpu’. Do’Ha’ ghu’vam ‘ach ghu’vam vIchoHlaHbe’. vIlaj neH. pagh jagh jIH ‘e’ vImaS, ‘ach rut jaghpu’ poQlaw' nuvpu’. rut mayajHa’chuq jIH latlhpu’ je. rut mapIchchuq. wejpuH. puqpu’ wIrur. pIch ghaj ‘Iv? jIqanchoH ‘ej jISaHbe’. pIch ghajbogh nuv’e’ Dangu’chugh, ghu' Daqay’Ha’moHbe’ ‘ej ghu’ DaDubbe'. nenchoH Hoch ‘e’ vInaj, ‘ach wej qaS. toH jaghpu’ chaHtaH nuvpu’’e’. jIQuch ‘e’ vImaS. vay’ jagh jIH’a’? jISaHbe’. not muQuchmoH bortaS. QIp bortaS ‘e’ vIHar. bortaS vIparmo’ tlhIngan vIrurbe’law’, ‘ach ngang tlhInganpu’. The irony is that my comments sometimes suggest generalities about Klingon culture restricting Klingons to stereotypes, yet here I am, violating one. Hoist by my own petard. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Apr 1, 2021, at 1:11 PM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
charghwI', SoHvaD qay' wa':
juppu'lI' (po'wI'pu'qoqvam..) vIquvmoHQo'.
'a vay'vam yIyajchu':
not po'wI'pu'qoqvam vIquvmoHpu'. 'ej *not* po'wI'pu'qoqvam vIvuvchoH.
ghu'vam yIbItlh.
~ Dana'an
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
participants (6)
-
Alan Anderson -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel -
Will Martin