bID in noun-noun constructions
I want to say "a year and a half", in the context of the following sentence: "the time-eating aliens arrived, and they ate a year and a half". My initial choice would be to write: {pawpu' poHmey Sopbogh novpu', 'ej DIS, DIS bID je Soppu'}. And I would use {DIS, DIS bID je}, since we have the Ca'Non words: {paH bID} = "skirt" (half of a gown/dress) {yopwaH bID} = "shorts" (half of pants) {DIr paH bID} = "kilt like garment" (half of gown/dress of leather) However, there's this Ca'Non sentence which messes me up: {cha' choQmey naQ tu'lu' 'ej tep choQ bIngDaq lo' law' bID choQ tu'lu'} = "2 full decks and a half utility deck under the cargo deck" Indeed, the klingon {lo' law' bID choQ} maps exactly to the fse translation: {lo' law' bID choQ} = "half utility deck" (deck of half utility) But my problem is that reading the english "half utility deck", I'd expect it to actually mean "half of a utility deck", in the context of perhaps "half the hight/size/whatever" of a utility deck. And not "deck of the half utility", because what the @!@# is "a deck of half utility" in the first place ? It's like saying "deck of the half kitchen". Anyways, I wouldn't lose any sleep over what this "deck of the half utility" actually is, if this wouldn't make me question my understanding of the way {bID} is to be used in noun-noun constructions. Was the intention of this Ca'Non sentence to actually say "deck of the half utility", case in which my understanding of the {bID} is correct ? Or is the intention of this Ca'Non sentence to actually say "half the (hight/size/whatever) of a utility deck" ? Because if the latter is true, then I'd expect it to be {lo' law' choQ bID} "half of the deck of the utility". And returning to the time-eating aliens, is it right to say {pawpu' poHmey Sopbogh novpu', 'ej DIS, DIS bID je Soppu'} for "the time-eating aliens arrived and ate a year and a half", or do I need to say something else ? ~ lIr qIj
On 5/12/2020 8:41 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
I want to say "a year and a half", in the context of the following sentence: "the time-eating aliens arrived, and they ate a year and a half".
*pawpu' poH luSopbogh nov. ghIq wa' vI' vagh DIS luSoppu'.* Qu'vaD SommI' lugh yIlo'. ** -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
For whatever reason, every instance of {bID} in the word list combined as a compound noun or noun noun construction uses {bID} as the last word: moQbID qubbID DIr bID paH bID yopwaH bID DIr paH bID While number words tend to precede the nouns they modify, {bID} acts more like a modifier. While it’s not an adjectival verb, it might be thought of more like a typical noun-noun construction. “Half of a utility deck” or “a utility deck’s half”. We don’t think of the word “whole” as a number. If you think of “half” as being related to “whole”, then perhaps you can avoid the assumption that it works just like a number in English. It apparently doesn’t have to be a number in Klingon. I’m not sure it can be a number in Klingon, though those who know canon can probably answer that better than I can. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On May 12, 2020, at 9:14 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
SuStel:
pawpu' poH luSopbogh nov. ghIq wa' vI' vagh DIS luSoppu'.
I've thought of this solution, but the thing I can't understand, is why {bID} is used as the second noun in {paH bID} etc, while at the "half utility deck" its' use is seemingly/apparently weird.
~ lIr qIj _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 18:15, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote:
For whatever reason, every instance of {bID} in the word list combined as a compound noun or noun noun construction uses {bID} as the last word:
[pe'] qubbID [pe']
Wait a minute, how is {qubbID} a compound noun? -- De'vID
On 5/13/2020 9:30 AM, De'vID wrote:
On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 18:15, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com <mailto:willmartin2@mac.com>> wrote:
For whatever reason, every instance of {bID} in the word list combined as a compound noun or noun noun construction uses {bID} as the last word:
[pe'] qubbID [pe']
Wait a minute, how is {qubbID} a compound noun?
It isn't. It might be a complex noun of the "other" type described in TKD 3.2.3 (multisyllabic nouns with no known etymological explanation which might have been compound nouns in earlier forms of the language). -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
De'vID:
{bID yIH(mey)} "half of the tribbles" {yIH{mey} bID} "the tribbles' halves" {SuD bID yIHmey} "half of the tribbles are green" (there are an equal number of {SuD} and {Doq} tribbles) {SuD yIHmey bID} "the tribbles' halves are green" (each tribble is {SuD} on one side and {Doq} on the other)
ok, I understand this, thanks. But there's something which feels strange when we apply {bID} to singular nous, and I get the impression that the way it is to be applied, has to do with whether the end result makes sense. And perhaps this is the reason you wrote:
I would expect {choQ bID} to be something which is functionally not the same as a {choQ}.
Because indeed, what would a "deck half" be ? It sounds like we have something which someone built, which is comprised of two halves, with only one of them being a deck. Or perhaps we have a half which is "of the deck kind". Strange indeed. Anyways, if it's not much trouble, please read the following example, and tell me whether you agree with my understanding of how {bID} works in conjunction with singular nouns. There's a pizza on the table; half of it has mushrooms and half has meat. If I say {bID pItSa' vISop}, then it means that I'll eat half of the pizza without specifying which half I'll eat. Perhaps I'll eat the mushroom half, perhaps the meat half, or perhaps I'll eat from both. What matters though, is that when I finish, half the amount of the pizza will be gone. If I say {pItSa' yav 'atlhqam bID vISop} then it means "I'll eat the mushroom half of the pizza". Do you agree with the above ? ~ mayqel qunen'oS
Note that a half deck could be something not half as BIG as a deck. It could be something half as HIGH as a deck. Think of a split-level house. Now, apply that to a ship. In a European historical sailing ship, it refers to a specific deck of the ship that seems to be arbitrarily named. Given the lack of this history, it seems odd that Klingons would seek a similarly named deck as some sort of parallel. The Wikipedia page has so many deck names, it can be confusing, but it seems that in a square-rigger like Columbus sailed, or the early American Colonists, the forecastle was in front, the quarterdeck was in the back, and the half deck was between them, except on ships that had even more decks/levels on top. It’s generally the lowest top of the ship that all the masts stick out of. What that’s got to do with a Bird of Prey escapes me. My guess is that somebody at ViaComm asked Okrand to translate “Half Deck” for someone who didn’t know what a half deck was, and Okrand, who probably ALSO doesn’t know what a half deck is, came up with a word-by-word translation without giving it as much thought as we do. If I remember the poster — it’s at work and I’m at home, in quarantine — they were indicating something higher than the other deck and toward the rear, which would have more appropriately been called a quarterdeck, if they did want to make a parallel with old sailing ships. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On May 14, 2020, at 6:23 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
De'vID:
{bID yIH(mey)} "half of the tribbles" {yIH{mey} bID} "the tribbles' halves" {SuD bID yIHmey} "half of the tribbles are green" (there are an equal number of {SuD} and {Doq} tribbles) {SuD yIHmey bID} "the tribbles' halves are green" (each tribble is {SuD} on one side and {Doq} on the other)
ok, I understand this, thanks. But there's something which feels strange when we apply {bID} to singular nous, and I get the impression that the way it is to be applied, has to do with whether the end result makes sense. And perhaps this is the reason you wrote:
I would expect {choQ bID} to be something which is functionally not the same as a {choQ}.
Because indeed, what would a "deck half" be ? It sounds like we have something which someone built, which is comprised of two halves, with only one of them being a deck. Or perhaps we have a half which is "of the deck kind". Strange indeed.
Anyways, if it's not much trouble, please read the following example, and tell me whether you agree with my understanding of how {bID} works in conjunction with singular nouns.
There's a pizza on the table; half of it has mushrooms and half has meat.
If I say {bID pItSa' vISop}, then it means that I'll eat half of the pizza without specifying which half I'll eat. Perhaps I'll eat the mushroom half, perhaps the meat half, or perhaps I'll eat from both. What matters though, is that when I finish, half the amount of the pizza will be gone.
If I say {pItSa' yav 'atlhqam bID vISop} then it means "I'll eat the mushroom half of the pizza".
Do you agree with the above ?
~ mayqel qunen'oS _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
charghwI':
Note that a half deck could be something not half as BIG as a deck. It could be something half as HIGH as a deck.
You're right. Indeed, we didn't consider this option in this thread thus far.. charghwI':
My guess is that somebody at ViaComm asked Okrand to translate “Half Deck” for someone who didn’t know what a half deck was, and Okrand, who probably ALSO doesn’t know what a half deck is, came up with a word-by-word translation without giving it as much thought as we do.
I don't know about that.. Many times I've come across things I don't understand, and my instinctive reaction is that "there's no rationale behind them; they happened by luck/randomly". And soon, when someone explains them to me, I realize that there was indeed a reason/explanation behind them. What I like in De'vID's explanation of the way {bID} is to be used, is that it explains the Ca'Non we have so far. Although, since I'm not quite sure I understood De'vID's explanation fully, that's why I wrote the pizza example earlier, an example about which I'm wondering, whether it's indeed correct.. ~ mayqel qunen'oS
On Thu, 14 May 2020 at 12:23, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Because indeed, what would a "deck half" be ? It sounds like we have something which someone built, which is comprised of two halves, with only one of them being a deck. Or perhaps we have a half which is "of the deck kind". Strange indeed.
Are you familiar with the genre of the "combining mecha"? https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CombiningMecha Without knowing what you're familiar with, it's hard to come up with a specific example, but there are any number of shows/comic books where two things combine and become something else. Say, two animal mecha combine to become a robot. The Duocon subgroup from the Transformers has this characteristic. For example, a car and a helicopter combine to form the robot Battletrap: https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Battletrap Each vehicle is therefore a {qoq bID}, a "robot's half", the type of which is not a robot. In contrast, a {bID qoq} is "half a robot", maybe like if you took a sword and cut Battletrap down the middle from head to toe.
Anyways, if it's not much trouble, please read the following example, and tell me whether you agree with my understanding of how {bID} works in conjunction with singular nouns.
There's a pizza on the table; half of it has mushrooms and half has meat.
If I say {bID pItSa' vISop}, then it means that I'll eat half of the pizza without specifying which half I'll eat. Perhaps I'll eat the mushroom half, perhaps the meat half, or perhaps I'll eat from both. What matters though, is that when I finish, half the amount of the pizza will be gone.
This is how I would understand it.
If I say {pItSa' yav 'atlhqam bID vISop} then it means "I'll eat the mushroom half of the pizza".
Do you agree with the above ?
I would understand that sentence with the intended meaning. -- De'vID
On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 15:15, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
SuStel:
pawpu' poH luSopbogh nov. ghIq wa' vI' vagh DIS luSoppu'.
I've thought of this solution, but the thing I can't understand, is why {bID} is used as the second noun in {paH bID} etc, while at the "half utility deck" its' use is seemingly/apparently weird.
{bID yIH(mey)} "half of the tribbles" {yIH{mey} bID} "the tribbles' halves" {SuD bID yIHmey} "half of the tribbles are green" (there are an equal number of {SuD} and {Doq} tribbles) {SuD yIHmey bID} "the tribbles' halves are green" (each tribble is {SuD} on one side and {Doq} on the other) In a noun-noun construction, the result's type is that of the second noun. Is a {moQbID} a {moQ}? No. Is it a {bID}. Yes, a {bID} of a {moQ}. A {yopwaH bID} is not quite a {yopwaH}. A {paH bID} is not quite a {paH}. (There's something which initially looks like an exception in {DIr bID} which, if it literally referred to half of a skin, is still a skin, but the explanation here is that it's actually a shortened form fo {DIr paH bID}. A {DIr paH} is a {paH}, and a short version of that isn't a {paH} but a {paH bID}, specifically a {DIr paH bID}, which is sometimes shortened to {DIr bID} when the context is clear.) A {bID choQ} is still a {choQ}. A half-deck is, in fact, just half of a deck. Its type is still deck. I would expect {choQ bID} to be something which is functionally not the same as a {choQ}. With {moQ} it's fairly unambiguous that halving it results in something that's not a {moQ}. With {choQ}, assuming you start with a reasonably-sized one, halving it still results in a {choQ} and you're at the other end of the spectrum. Items of clothing are in between and it's ambiguous or debatable which way they could've gone: how short does a "dress" have to be before it becomes a "skirt"? At least for a sufficiently short one, Klingons apparently no longer see it as a dress but as a half-dress (which is not a dress in the way that a hemisphere is not a sphere). -- De'vID
participants (4)
-
De'vID -
mayqel qunen'oS -
SuStel -
Will Martin