Question about the focus / topic meaning of *-'e'*
Some years ago I was discussing here the meaning of the suffix *-'e'* and I got, as always, very helpful answers. However, I find from time to time canonical examples that I cannot understand completely. It would be great if someone could explain the meaning of *-'e'* in these two excerpts of the paq'batlh: Dung qo’ lupawDI’ chaH qeylIS qorDu’Daj je ta’’e’ neH bop bommey (paq'raD 9, 4-6) veng ’elDI’ ghaH pawpa’ ghaH’e’ paw lutDaj ’e’ Sov qeylIS (paq'raD 10, 1-3) Thank you very much!
From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> On Behalf Of Luis via tlhIngan-Hol
Some years ago I was discussing here the meaning of the suffix *-'e'* and I got, as always, very helpful answers. However, I find from time to time canonical examples that I cannot understand completely.
It would be great if someone could explain the meaning of *-'e'* in these two excerpts of the paq'batlh:
Dung qo’ lupawDI’ chaH qeylIS qorDu’Daj je ta’’e’ neH bop bommey (paq'raD 9, 4-6)
This is {-'e'} used for focus. Here it is with helpful punctuation: Dung qo' lupawDI' chaH, qeylIS qorDu'Daj je ta''e' neH bop bommey. As soon as they arrive in the upper world, it is only about the deeds of Kahless and his family that songs are about. (This is awkward grammar in English, but in Klingon it is just the addition of a syllable.)
veng ’elDI’ ghaH pawpa’ ghaH’e’ paw lutDaj ’e’ Sov qeylIS (paq'raD 10, 1-3)
This is also focus. Adding punctuation and a bit of helping brackets: veng 'elDI' ghaH, [pawpa' ghaH'e' paw lutDaj 'e' Sov qeylIS]. As soon as he enters the city, Kahless knows that his story arrives before HE does. The first subordinate clause is a subordinate clause to the entire line. The second subordinate clause is a subordinate clause of the first sentence of the sentence-as-object construction. Put another way, in the sentence as object, sentence 1 is {pawpa' ghaH'e' paw lutDaj} and sentence 2 is {'e' Sov qeylIS}. Do not read the sentence this way: veng 'elDI' ghaH, pawpa' ghaH'e', [paw lutDaj 'e' Sov qeylIS]. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Thank you, SuStel, for your reply!
This is {-'e'} used for focus. Here it is with helpful punctuation:
Dung qo' lupawDI' chaH, qeylIS qorDu'Daj je ta''e' neH bop bommey. As soon as they arrive in the upper world, it is only about the deeds of Kahless and his family that songs are about.
(This is awkward grammar in English, but in Klingon it is just the addition of a syllable.)
But why *-'e'* and *neH* together? Wouldn't just *neH* translate as you propose?
This is also focus. Adding punctuation and a bit of helping brackets:
veng 'elDI' ghaH, [pawpa' ghaH'e' paw lutDaj 'e' Sov qeylIS]. As soon as he enters the city, Kahless knows that his story arrives before HE does.
The first subordinate clause is a subordinate clause to the entire line. The second subordinate clause is a subordinate clause of the first sentence of the sentence-as-object construction.
Put another way, in the sentence as object, sentence 1 is {pawpa' ghaH'e' paw lutDaj} and sentence 2 is {'e' Sov qeylIS}.
Yes, reading it so is helpful. I think I was just fixated on interpreting focus literally as "THIS and not something else", while it is more about emphasizing a noun out of whatever reason it may apply (here, e.g., because it is surprising and unexpected). A last question: I don't want to reopen a long discussion about aspect, but wouldn't it make more sense to say *pawpu' lutDaj*?
From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> On Behalf Of Luis via Sent: Friday, December 5, 2025 3:12 PM
This is {-'e'} used for focus. Here it is with helpful punctuation:
Dung qo' lupawDI' chaH, qeylIS qorDu'Daj je ta''e' neH bop bommey. As soon as they arrive in the upper world, it is only about the deeds of Kahless and his family that songs are about.
(This is awkward grammar in English, but in Klingon it is just the addition of a syllable.)
But why *-'e'* and *neH* together? Wouldn't just *neH* translate as you propose?
It's kind of like the fronting I did in English. It's the difference between The songs are about only the deeds of Kahless and his family. and It is only the deeds of Kahless and his family that the songs are about. Why would you choose the latter over the former? That's also why you'd choose to add the -'e' to the Klingon.
This is also focus. Adding punctuation and a bit of helping brackets:
veng 'elDI' ghaH, [pawpa' ghaH'e' paw lutDaj 'e' Sov qeylIS]. As soon as he enters the city, Kahless knows that his story arrives before HE does.
The first subordinate clause is a subordinate clause to the entire line. The second subordinate clause is a subordinate clause of the first sentence of the sentence-as-object construction.
Put another way, in the sentence as object, sentence 1 is {pawpa' ghaH'e' paw lutDaj} and sentence 2 is {'e' Sov qeylIS}.
Yes, reading it so is helpful. I think I was just fixated on interpreting focus literally as "THIS and not something else", while it is more about emphasizing a noun out of whatever reason it may apply (here, e.g., because it is surprising and unexpected).
It still has that meaning; it just doesn't make for a smooth English translation. Kahless knows that his story arrived before HE (not the story) did.
A last question: I don't want to reopen a long discussion about aspect, but wouldn't it make more sense to say *pawpu' lutDaj*?
Yes, I was thinking that too. Maybe this is a case of the English translation being changes to make a better translation (diegetically). "Kahless knows that his tale precedes him" is another perfectly good translation that would be closer to the Klingon. So the -pu' isn't really necessary; the English translator is just taking liberties. (Again, looking at it diegetically. We know in the real world that the English version came first and was then translated into Klingon.) -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
participants (2)
-
l.cp＠web.de -
sustel trimboli.name