First, lets take a walk down memory lane.. Recently, lieven revealed, that okrand revealed, that maltz had revealed.. *** revelation start *** Regarding the problem we recently had with {'ar}, Okrand answered: Plural if the questioned noun can be singular or plural (it lacks a plural suffix) and the translation is “how many?”; singular if the questioned noun is something that can’t be counted and the translation is “how much?” So {Duj ’ar DIlegh?} “How many ships do we see?” {bIQ ’ar wIlegh?} “How much water do we see? *** revelation end *** So, here comes the question.. I want to say: "how many ships are there ?" Do I say {Duj 'ar tu'lu' ?} ? Or do I say {Duj 'ar lutu'lu'} ? Does the new insight on {'ar}, "outweight" the "pedantic" flavor of the {lutu'lu'} ? Or is our beloved {tu'lu'} too tough a nut to crack, even for the newly revealed {'ar} knowledge, thus being able to survive it ? ~ bara'qa'