Anyone wan to help design a Klingon ruler?
My kids and I are trying to design a Klingon ruler. We could use some help. I cannot promise you riches or battle glory, but if we pull this off, I'll send you a Klingon ruler of your very own. Here are our questions and a link to a form if you want to join the team: 1. From here <http://daily-klingon.tumblr.com/post/132822212317/units-of-measurement> we find the Klingon unit of length 'uj' is 34.83cm (derived from BoP poster). Can anyone confirm this? 2. We understand the Klingon number system was originally ternary, but was decimalized to facilitate communication with other civilizations. Might we report units of 'uj' as 0.1 uj, 0.2 uj, etc? 3. Should a Klingon ruler double as a weapon? Apply to the team via this link. <https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfc4--MvMuLlmvvQ36M6VBKjzrI3S_Uy5cFWgKINSZi-VSahw/viewform> Thank you. Ben
see also: https://65.13.120.12/tlhIngan/cheb-uj.htm On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Benjamin Atkinson < benjamin.atkinson@gmail.com> wrote:
My kids and I are trying to design a Klingon ruler. We could use some help.
I cannot promise you riches or battle glory, but if we pull this off, I'll send you a Klingon ruler of your very own.
Here are our questions and a link to a form if you want to join the team:
1. From here <http://daily-klingon.tumblr.com/post/132822212317/units-of-measurement> we find the Klingon unit of length 'uj' is 34.83cm (derived from BoP poster). Can anyone confirm this? 2. We understand the Klingon number system was originally ternary, but was decimalized to facilitate communication with other civilizations. Might we report units of 'uj' as 0.1 uj, 0.2 uj, etc? 3. Should a Klingon ruler double as a weapon?
Apply to the team via this link. <https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfc4--MvMuLlmvvQ36M6VBKjzrI3S_Uy5cFWgKINSZi-VSahw/viewform>
Thank you.
Ben
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
-- ~Michael Roney, Jr. Freelance Translator
Sounds like fun! Won't be able to join the team myself, however.
From here<http://daily-klingon.tumblr.com/post/132822212317/units-of-measurement> we find the Klingon unit of length 'uj' is 34.83cm (derived from BoP poster).
Can anyone confirm this?
Yup, 34,83 cm seems about right. I did an investigation previously on this list and reached the same conclusion: http://stodi.lojban.org/~clsn/webarchives/2012/March/msg00130.html
We understand the Klingon number system was originally ternary, but was decimalized to
facilitate communication with other civilizations. Might we report units of 'uj' as 0.1 uj, 0.2 uj, etc?
Sadly, we know very little of units of length smaller than one 'uj, but yes, there is confirmation of those measurements being expressed using decimals. In the link above, you'll find examples such as wejvatlh loSmaH loS vI' vagh wej 'ujmey (344,53 'ujmey)
Should a Klingon ruler double as a weapon?
Depends on the end-user, I suppose, but I personally would advise against it; rulers are rulers and weapons are weapons. ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Benjamin Atkinson <benjamin.atkinson@gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2016 20:47 To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org Subject: [tlhIngan Hol] Anyone wan to help design a Klingon ruler? My kids and I are trying to design a Klingon ruler. We could use some help. I cannot promise you riches or battle glory, but if we pull this off, I'll send you a Klingon ruler of your very own. Here are our questions and a link to a form if you want to join the team: 1. From here<http://daily-klingon.tumblr.com/post/132822212317/units-of-measurement> we find the Klingon unit of length 'uj' is 34.83cm (derived from BoP poster). Can anyone confirm this? 2. We understand the Klingon number system was originally ternary, but was decimalized to facilitate communication with other civilizations. Might we report units of 'uj' as 0.1 uj, 0.2 uj, etc? 3. Should a Klingon ruler double as a weapon? Apply to the team via this link.<https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfc4--MvMuLlmvvQ36M6VBKjzrI3S_Uy5cFWgKINSZi-VSahw/viewform> Thank you. Ben
Daj qay'wI'vam; 'ach wIjangmeH maghel'eghnIS: pab mub lInglaHchugh 'oqranD neH, vaj tlhIngan Dochmey bopbogh De' mub lInglaH 'Iv ? vorgh mu'tlhegh wIjanglaHchugh, vaj juvwI' renlaH vay'.. qunnoH ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta' On 2 Nov 2016 10:32 pm, "Felix Malmenbeck" <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
Sounds like fun! Won't be able to join the team myself, however.
From here <http://daily-klingon.tumblr.com/post/132822212317/units-of-measurement> we find the Klingon unit of length 'uj' is 34.83cm (derived from BoP poster).
Can anyone confirm this?
Yup, 34,83 cm seems about right. I did an investigation previously on this list and reached the same conclusion:
http://stodi.lojban.org/~clsn/webarchives/2012/March/msg00130.html
We understand the Klingon number system was originally ternary, but was decimalized to
facilitate communication with other civilizations. Might we report units of 'uj' as 0.1 uj, 0.2 uj, etc?
Sadly, we know very little of units of length smaller than one 'uj, but yes, there is confirmation of those measurements being expressed using decimals. In the link above, you'll find examples such as
wejvatlh loSmaH loS vI' vagh wej 'ujmey (344,53 'ujmey)
Should a Klingon ruler double as a weapon?
Depends on the end-user, I suppose, but I personally would advise against it; rulers are rulers and weapons are weapons.
------------------------------ *From:* tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Benjamin Atkinson <benjamin.atkinson@gmail.com> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 2, 2016 20:47 *To:* tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org *Subject:* [tlhIngan Hol] Anyone wan to help design a Klingon ruler?
My kids and I are trying to design a Klingon ruler. We could use some help.
I cannot promise you riches or battle glory, but if we pull this off, I'll send you a Klingon ruler of your very own.
Here are our questions and a link to a form if you want to join the team:
1. From here <http://daily-klingon.tumblr.com/post/132822212317/units-of-measurement> we find the Klingon unit of length 'uj' is 34.83cm (derived from BoP poster). Can anyone confirm this? 2. We understand the Klingon number system was originally ternary, but was decimalized to facilitate communication with other civilizations. Might we report units of 'uj' as 0.1 uj, 0.2 uj, etc? 3. Should a Klingon ruler double as a weapon?
Apply to the team via this link. <https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfc4--MvMuLlmvvQ36M6VBKjzrI3S_Uy5cFWgKINSZi-VSahw/viewform>
Thank you.
Ben
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 4:32 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
Sounds like fun! Won't be able to join the team myself, however.
Oh, boy! Now I want to make a Klingon ruler!
Sadly, we know very little of units of length smaller than one 'uj, but yes, there is confirmation of those measurements being expressed using decimals. In the link above, you'll find examples such as
wejvatlh loSmaH loS vI' vagh wej 'ujmey (344,53 'ujmey)
Just as feet are divided into both tenths of feet (for surveying) and inches (for carpentry, machining, etc.), perhaps Klingons use both decimal {'ujmey} and {'ujHommey} according to purpose. Based on how augmentatives multiply units of measurement by nine, it's reasonable to expect that diminutives divide then by nine, in which an {'ujHom} would be one ninth of an {'uj} or 3.87cm. Another thing to ask Maltz. I'd hate to make a ruler marked with {'ujHommey} only to find out from Maltz an {'ujHom} is actually a twenty-seventh of an {'uj}.
Should a Klingon ruler double as a weapon?
Depends on the end-user, I suppose, but I personally would advise against it; rulers are rulers and weapons are weapons.
In the hands of my second-grade teacher, it was a weapon. rut muHup 'a vIvuv. ~mIp'av
9 years ago I also wanted to make a Klingon ruler but was unsure of how to divide the 'uj into something more in line with inches. 6 years ago I was involved with a Klingon ruler app for webOS that divided the 'uj into 10 parts. I can see arguments for dividing an 'uj by 9, 10, or 12 segments, and I would gladly buy those versions; but I'd prefer a more authoritative word from Maltz on an inch like measurement.
On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 6:20 PM, Ed Bailey <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com> wrote:
Just as feet are divided into both tenths of feet (for surveying) and inches (for carpentry, machining, etc.), perhaps Klingons use both decimal {'ujmey} and {'ujHommey} according to purpose. Based on how augmentatives multiply units of measurement by nine, it's reasonable to expect that diminutives divide then by nine, in which an {'ujHom} would be one ninth of an {'uj} or 3.87cm. Another thing to ask Maltz. I'd hate to make a ruler marked with {'ujHommey} only to find out from Maltz an {'ujHom} is actually a twenty-seventh of an {'uj}.
Reasonable expectations apparently do not apply to Klingon units of measure. Here's what Marc Okrand said about such things:
From: Marc Okrand <...> Newsgroups: startrek.klingon Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 Subject: Re: Measurement question
Will Martin wrote:
So, if an 'uj'a' is nine 'ujmey, is an 'ujHom a ninth of an 'uj?
No. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.
An 'uj is a unit of linear measurement, roughly 35 centimeters; an 'uj'a', or "big uj" ('uj plus the augmentative suffix -'a' "big") is nine times as long, or nine ujes, somewhat over three meters.
The Klingon measurement system is more like the British and American system in that the names of the units, for the most part, have nothing to do with each other (inch, foot, yard, mile, and so on). This differs from the metric system, where the names are basic units modified by a set of prefixes (meter, millimeter, centimeter, kilometer, etc.).
Thus the existence of a unit known as a "big uj" ('uj'a') does not mean there's a mathematically related diminutive counterpart (a "little uj," or 'ujHom)
Maltz did say, however, that he'd heard the term 'ujHom used in a story about a merchant lacking honor, something about the merchant not filling the order properly.
-- ghunchu'wI'
On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 9:09 PM, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
Reasonable expectations apparently do not apply to Klingon units of measure.
...and not just units of measure, which is why I speculated cautiously (I forgot about that discussion of measurement). Also why it's so useful to have Maltz around (though it would be nice to hear a lot more from him), since any language (except maybe Lojban, from what I've heard) defies expectations, English more than some. When my daughter was two, she had the reasonable expectation that the contraction for "am not" was "amn't." Recently we found out {jeS} never takes an object, contrary to a lot of people's expectations that it wouldn't necessarily be intransitive like English "participate." Fine by me, or I'd quit and study Lojban instead. ~mIp'av
Ed, you might be surprised at the expectations that Lojban defies. lay'tel SIvten On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 9:48 PM, Ed Bailey <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 9:09 PM, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:
Reasonable expectations apparently do not apply to Klingon units of measure.
...and not just units of measure, which is why I speculated cautiously (I forgot about that discussion of measurement). Also why it's so useful to have Maltz around (though it would be nice to hear a lot more from him), since any language (except maybe Lojban, from what I've heard) defies expectations, English more than some. When my daughter was two, she had the reasonable expectation that the contraction for "am not" was "amn't." Recently we found out {jeS} never takes an object, contrary to a lot of people's expectations that it wouldn't necessarily be intransitive like English "participate." Fine by me, or I'd quit and study Lojban instead. ~mIp'av
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On 2 November 2016 at 21:32, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
facilitate communication with other civilizations. Might we report units of 'uj' as 0.1 uj, 0.2 uj, etc?
Sadly, we know very little of units of length smaller than one 'uj, but yes, there is confirmation of those measurements being expressed using decimals. In the link above, you'll find examples such as
wejvatlh loSmaH loS vI' vagh wej 'ujmey (344,53 'ujmey)
Just to clarify what I wrote earlier: 2'3.1 and 2'3.2 would be how you write 1/3 and 1/3, respectively, in the 3-adic system. I had interpreted your original message to mean that you wanted to design a ruler using the ternary Klingon counting system. If you actually mean 1/10 and 2/10, then 0.1 and 0.2 is fine. -- De'vID
Thank you both for helping fill my gap in number theory. "Sadly, we know very little of units of length smaller than one 'uj, but yes, there is confirmation of those measurements being expressed using decimals. In the link above, you'll find examples such as " I did not find the link you referenced. Could you re-send? majQa' On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 5:58 AM De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2 November 2016 at 21:32, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
facilitate communication with other civilizations. Might we report units of 'uj' as 0.1 uj, 0.2 uj, etc?
Sadly, we know very little of units of length smaller than one 'uj, but yes, there is confirmation of those measurements being expressed using decimals. In the link above, you'll find examples such as
wejvatlh loSmaH loS vI' vagh wej 'ujmey (344,53 'ujmey)
Just to clarify what I wrote earlier: 2'3.1 and 2'3.2 would be how you write 1/3 and 1/3, respectively, in the 3-adic system. I had interpreted your original message to mean that you wanted to design a ruler using the ternary Klingon counting system. If you actually mean 1/10 and 2/10, then 0.1 and 0.2 is fine.
-- De'vID
ghItlhlu' :-
Just to clarify what I wrote earlier: 2'3.1 and 2'3.2 would be how you write 1/3 and 1/3, respectively, in the 3-adic system. I had interpreted your original message to mean that you wanted to design a ruler using the ternary Klingon counting system. If you actually mean 1/10 and 2/10, then 0.1 and 0.2 is fine.
'oqranD yIghel??
On 4 November 2016 at 06:41, Anthony Appleyard <a.appleyard@btinternet.com> wrote:
ghItlhlu' :-
Just to clarify what I wrote earlier: 2'3.1 and 2'3.2 would be how you write 1/3 and 1/3, respectively, in the 3-adic system. I had interpreted your original message to mean that you wanted to design a ruler using the ternary Klingon counting system. If you actually mean 1/10 and 2/10, then 0.1 and 0.2 is fine.
'oqranD yIghel??
nuq wIghel? qatlh? We know from TKD and the BoP poster that Klingons have adopted the decimal system. -- De'vID
On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Benjamin Atkinson < benjamin.atkinson@gmail.com> wrote:
Should a Klingon ruler double as a weapon? On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 4:32 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote: Depends on the end-user, I suppose, but I personally would advise against it; rulers are rulers and weapons are weapons. On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 5:27 PM, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote: There is no essential difference between a tool and a weapon. reH nuHmey tu'lu'.
I can stab someone with a pencil, and that would make it a weapon, but that's not the function we normally use it for. So, while a ruler could also be used as a weapon, I wouldn't spend time designing it to double as one. I would honestly just make a standard wood/metal/plastic rectangular ruler, but with 'uj instead of inches. The ruler needs to be able to 1) measure the distance between two points with a standard unit of measure. 2) aid in the drawing of straight lines. While one could spend time trying to make it "more Klingon", I really think the goal needs to be a functional ruler/straight edge. Now, if someone is familiar with a functional ruler that isn't a rectangle, that might be worth looking into. -- ~Michael Roney, Jr. Freelance Translator
My ruler isn't a rectangle; it looks very similar to this one: https://www.eckersleys.com.au/site/assets/media/Products/Draftex/Draftex_Rol... But I doubt that is any "more Klingon" than any other ruler :-P. -QISta' On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 2:49 PM, Michael Roney, Jr. <nahqun@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Benjamin Atkinson < benjamin.atkinson@gmail.com> wrote:
Should a Klingon ruler double as a weapon? On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 4:32 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote: Depends on the end-user, I suppose, but I personally would advise against it; rulers are rulers and weapons are weapons. On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 5:27 PM, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote: There is no essential difference between a tool and a weapon. reH nuHmey tu'lu'.
I can stab someone with a pencil, and that would make it a weapon, but that's not the function we normally use it for. So, while a ruler could also be used as a weapon, I wouldn't spend time designing it to double as one. I would honestly just make a standard wood/metal/plastic rectangular ruler, but with 'uj instead of inches.
The ruler needs to be able to 1) measure the distance between two points with a standard unit of measure. 2) aid in the drawing of straight lines.
While one could spend time trying to make it "more Klingon", I really think the goal needs to be a functional ruler/straight edge.
Now, if someone is familiar with a functional ruler that isn't a rectangle, that might be worth looking into.
-- ~Michael Roney, Jr. Freelance Translator
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 11/2/2016 5:49 PM, Michael Roney, Jr. wrote:
The ruler needs to be able to 1) measure the distance between two points with a standard unit of measure. 2) aid in the drawing of straight lines.
While one could spend time trying to make it "more Klingon", I really think the goal needs to be a functional ruler/straight edge.
A Klingon would use a tricorder and a computer to do these things. Don't worry about making a ruler "authentic"; just make one that's cool. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 2 November 2016 at 22:49, Michael Roney, Jr. <nahqun@gmail.com> wrote:
Now, if someone is familiar with a functional ruler that isn't a rectangle, that might be worth looking into.
Huh? There are a number of goniometers (which are a type of ruler) which are semicircular or triangular in shape. And I've always thought an architect's scale (which is a type of ruler) looks very Klingon from the side: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architect%27s_scale -- De'vID
Can you make a ruler that can't be used as a weapon? lay'tel SIvten On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Benjamin Atkinson < benjamin.atkinson@gmail.com> wrote:
My kids and I are trying to design a Klingon ruler. We could use some help.
I cannot promise you riches or battle glory, but if we pull this off, I'll send you a Klingon ruler of your very own.
Here are our questions and a link to a form if you want to join the team:
1. From here <http://daily-klingon.tumblr.com/post/132822212317/units-of-measurement> we find the Klingon unit of length 'uj' is 34.83cm (derived from BoP poster). Can anyone confirm this? 2. We understand the Klingon number system was originally ternary, but was decimalized to facilitate communication with other civilizations. Might we report units of 'uj' as 0.1 uj, 0.2 uj, etc? 3. Should a Klingon ruler double as a weapon?
Apply to the team via this link. <https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfc4--MvMuLlmvvQ36M6VBKjzrI3S_Uy5cFWgKINSZi-VSahw/viewform>
Thank you.
Ben
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
muD DujDaq {ruler} vIlo'laH vIneH. vaj nuH nuHHey joq 'oHbe'nIS. {ruler}wIj nIH muD Duj 'avwI' 'e' vIneHbe'. -SapIr SKI: I prefer to fly carry on-only. I would prefer that the ruler pass a TSA check.
On Nov 3, 2016, at 00:30, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
Can you make a ruler that can't be used as a weapon?
lay'tel SIvten
On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Benjamin Atkinson <benjamin.atkinson@gmail.com> wrote: My kids and I are trying to design a Klingon ruler. We could use some help.
I cannot promise you riches or battle glory, but if we pull this off, I'll send you a Klingon ruler of your very own.
Here are our questions and a link to a form if you want to join the team: From here we find the Klingon unit of length 'uj' is 34.83cm (derived from BoP poster). Can anyone confirm this? We understand the Klingon number system was originally ternary, but was decimalized to facilitate communication with other civilizations. Might we report units of 'uj' as 0.1 uj, 0.2 uj, etc? Should a Klingon ruler double as a weapon? Apply to the team via this link.
Thank you.
Ben
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 2 November 2016 at 20:47, Benjamin Atkinson <benjamin.atkinson@gmail.com> wrote:
We understand the Klingon number system was originally ternary, but was decimalized to facilitate communication with other civilizations. Might we report units of 'uj' as 0.1 uj, 0.2 uj, etc?
Note that while the original Klingon counting system is ternary, it's *not* a base-3 positional system (which you seem to have assumed) but a 3-adic one. To quote The Klingon Dictionary, "Counting proceeded as follows: 1, 2, 3; 3+1, 3+2, 3+3; 2×3+1, 2×3+2, 2×3+3; 3×3+1, 3×3+2, 3×3+3". Note that 6 (decimal) is *not* "20" (i.e., 2×3, which is what it would be under a base-3 positional notation), but rather "13" (i.e., 1×3+3, which is what it would be in 3-adic notation). Similarly, 9 (decimal) is not "100" (1×3×3), but "23" (2×3+3). Under such a system, the fractional units would *not* be written as 0.1, 0.2, etc. I believe they would be 2'3.1, 2'3.2 in the quote notation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quote_notation), though you should check my math. -- De'vID
participants (12)
-
Alan Anderson -
Anthony Appleyard -
Benjamin Atkinson -
Christa Hansberry -
De'vID -
Ed Bailey -
Felix Malmenbeck -
kechpaja＠comcast.net -
mayqel qunenoS -
Michael Roney, Jr. -
MorphemeAddict -
SuStel